Neil Metzler: 0:01

You're listening to your next big thing. My name is Neil Metzler and I'm a Career Coach and startup mentor in tech. In this series of podcasts, you will hear inspiring stories of career inventions, stories of folks who made a change, to find fulfilment from work and satisfaction from life. Even in this time of disruption. I hope you can take some perspective insight and learn how to do what you love and love what you do. My guest today is Josh Stillman. During an eight year career in law, Josh won multimillion dollar victories for corporate clients, and immigration relief pro bono. Josh holds a JD from New York University Law School, where he graduated in the top 10% of his class. In the middle of a career in law, Josh made a big change. He's now a senior software engineer at a fast growing tech company, where he leads teams and helps clients build better products and applications. In this episode, Josh and I speak about recognizing what drives you and tapping into that passion. We also go in depth about how to bridge into tech, including why Josh enrolled in a coding boot camp from the Flatiron School. Anyone looking for practical advice on how to do more of what they love, and how to use their existing skills in a new context will benefit from this episode. I hope you enjoy it. All right. I am sitting here today in Brooklyn, New York at the kitchen at home of a good friend and inspiration and role model for myself, Josh Stillman, Josh, welcome to your next big thing.

Josh: 1:40

Thanks, Neil. Happy to be here. Yeah, happy to see you again. After all these years,

Neil Metzler: 1:44

it's great to have you on the pod and to reconnect. So we get we go way back to, you know, high school days, as well as actually even I mean, elementary school days. And I remember, you know, coming over and seeing you actually at the computer desk, like making making magic happen on like an old 386 or 486 computer like we're talking about, I think was escaped from Zork. Or I might have seen you play like Baldurs Gate one at some point. And this was amazing. I mean, I think you were definitely the first person I ever saw using program. Seminole programs like Napster, like Winamp. So this, you've always actually been a personal tech inspiration in my life. And it's my pleasure to sit down with you here for the pod.

Josh: 2:30

Wow. All right, man. Yeah. Thank you. Happy to be here. Yeah.

Neil Metzler: 2:33

So I'll just let listeners know, for our audience. On your next big thing. We cover three chapters, and we try to provide an inspiring story about people who made a big change to get more satisfaction from work and happiness from life. So you're going to hear us talk about some of the why Josh made his very, very interesting and challenging jump, that how he built that bridge. And then the what for so what he has learned from that journey. So Josh, I'd love you to start us off telling more about the moment you knew you're interested in computers. When was that moment? And and why did you? Why did you know it?

Josh: 3:13

Yeah, well. My childhood was very, you know, focused around video games. I was like, just a huge video game fanatic. My friends and I were huge video game fanatics. This was like kind of what we lived for. For a lot of these these early years. I'm thinking like, especially going back to like ages like 910 11 like that era. And this was like our whole life and like it, it got me playing not only console games, but computer games. And like, I got to know more about computers from that. But what really got me into coding for the first time at like a fairly young age was my one of my good friends and I were we're just like, we love this so much. We want to make our own video games and we had these like grand plans for like, Feeny the listeners out there. Remember, like LucasArts games like Monkey Island or like those we love edible

Neil Metzler: 4:08

adventure and puzzle and problem solving games with beautiful art design as well that were really inspiring for our generation.

Josh: 4:15

Totally. Yeah. So I mean, we like lived for these games. So we wanted to design our own. Um, yeah. And we somehow convinced our parents to get us Visual Basic, which was like, kind of a beginner's friendly, coding language, very much not designed for building video games in it was designed for making like business applications. I think it's now a part of like Excel or something like that. But back then it was like a standalone thing you bought in the store and you could write little programs in it. That's right. And we just started tooling around with it and like, trying to make our own games and I just like some of the like, amazing childhood memories I have or like the first time we got like scene transitions working And like we could transition from like one room in our game to another and like, figuring out just the absolutely rudimentary parts of coding. And yeah, that's that's kind of how I got into it. And so I was just like, I had a real serious computer nerd phase of like, coding and making video games as a kid and we even did even back then there were not a ton of resources for for people that are like, I want to say what this is like 910 11 Like those years. Not a lot of resources for kids. So we ended up like, what one of our summer camps like regular kids, we're probably doing something more, more outdoorsy and, and archery. Yeah, something like that. Getting some exercise. We were signed up for a community college course in Visual Basic, and it was a couple 10 or 11 year olds and a bunch of adults who were trying to learn it for whatever their careers were. And yeah, I remember we had to, like sit down with the teacher and instructor and like, convince them we were serious. And and then we did it. And this was my computer nerd summer camp experience. So yeah, I mean, I lived with a computer nerd thing. Way back when

Neil Metzler: 6:08

that sounds Josh like something that was an early sign that you were passionate about computers? And what did they mean to you? Did they give you a means to explore? For many of us, it's a means to explore new worlds, or try and test our abilities. What What motivated you to do things like go out of your way to try to attend a camp for much older students?

Josh: 6:33

Camp? It's more like a community college core as a campus generous? Yeah, I don't know. I think that like so much of our, like, childhood existence was just so heavily focused on video games, and we were just like, it would have been like the ultimate dream to be able to make our own or I think like we we really liked building things as kids, we would like. We did other things, too, like making our own movies. And we tried to like we got into Michael Creighton, and we had like, tried to read our own Michael Creighton novel or Michael Cretan style novel about some disaster in Guam. I think it was okay. Yeah. So, we were very into, like, this kind of creative building thing. As kids, my friend and I, and yeah, I think it was just like, this was for some reason, like, what we thought of is like, the pinnacle of like, the coolest thing you could do would be like, make a video game. So that's why we were willing to like, I don't know, explore this stuff and give it a try.

Neil Metzler: 7:31

So Joshua told me how as a as a child, you were very motivated. And we're experimenting with computers and video games from programming in Visual Basic, which is very challenging is not fit for exactly fit for purpose, and it's very impressive. So you've told me that later in, in your Bachelor's you rediscovered and, and went deeper, specifically around programming? So why was that?

Josh: 7:57

Yeah, so I went to a liberal arts school in Washington State, and, you know, very heavy focus on sort of classics, reading and writing, I was a political philosophy major. And the coding I had had kind of not touched too much during my high school years, but picked it back up in college, when to fulfill at once, it was like either a math or science requirement. The courses that look most interesting to me were they offered at that point in time, a two semester sequence in C++. They didn't offer like a CS degree they do now, actually. But that's what they offered. So I took those courses and, like, totally loved him again. One College memory is like, there was some some house party that my friends and I were going to and I was just like, desperately trying to finish this, like coding challenge. I was working on them. Like, come on, do we got to go out the door? I'm like, come on. No, hang on, hang on. I gotta like finish this coding thing. Like, dude, who is like coding on a Friday night? Like, retrospect, I'm like, Ah, maybe should have seen something. Something back then. Yeah. So there was a there's my sophomore year of college. Yeah, I was I was doing some fair amount coding in C++ for those courses.

Neil Metzler: 9:09

Wow. So even when provided, you know, certain social opportunities in university there were one or two times when you were at the console, and you were working at C++? So I see what you're saying about possible signal there. Love it. And retrospect?

Josh: 9:25

Yeah, probably probably was a signal. Yeah, there's something I find about coding where it's like, if you're stuck on a challenge. It's just like very hard to break away. And you're just like, I've got to do this. I've got to solve it. So I think they were just like, Come on, dude. Let's get on with it and make it to this party on time.

Neil Metzler: 9:40

So let's take us forward in time. You've gone to law school, and you've been practicing law for several years. Can you tell us what signals you noticed? And why you started to consider changing from law and changing from law into tech.

Josh: 10:04

Yeah, you know, even even though I didn't land in law, for the entirety of my career, I am really proud of the, the work that I did, as you know, a law student, a law clerk and a lawyer, I'm proud of the clients that I got to represent. I got to work with, you know, some incredibly brilliant people, some of the best in the industry. And, and, you know, though I didn't land there, it absolutely informed who I am as a professional as a thinker. I think it informs a lot of what I do as a coder, and how I look at technical problems and the perspective that I bring to, you know, to my, to my present work there. So I think that's something to pass on to the audience that those experiences and the skills you gain. Those are never lost, they'll just be carried forward, you know, if you do decide to make a career change, like I did, they'll be carried forward. And, you know, you'll still they'll still inform your, your work in your new career.

Neil Metzler: 11:11

It's clear that you've tuned into not only what comes naturally to your abilities, but also the type of environment that you thrive in. And I know from your story, that it took some time for you to identify what that environment should be. It wasn't, it wasn't one day you woke up and immediately knew that you were going to go into software engineering, is that right?

Josh: 11:33

Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, I had explored a lot of different paths. I think for a long time, I thought I wanted to be a legal academic for, for a few reasons. Like going back to that senior thesis, I really enjoyed sort of like building and crafting, you know, scholarship, and legal arguments. That's, that's somewhat related to what I was doing with the judges too. So it was it was something I saw as a as a way to be building something, it was something that was more outside of this kind of adversarial world. Now granted, if you know much about the legal academy, it's still pretty adversarial. You're just, you know, sparring with with colleagues, but rather than opposing counsel. But I think I thought that that could be a good fit. For me, I definitely have like a scholarly scholarly bent. So I had investigated that pretty seriously and got quite close to going down that path. And I would say the thing that really threw me was ultimately realizing that to go down that path, certainly would have required sacrifices in terms of where I was willing to live. And I just kind of had, I came to a realization at a point where I realized I'm not willing to move for a job to a place where I know no one, it's too important for me to be, you know, around friends and family. And that that kind of ended up for closing that path. I ended up exploring definitely other other roles and in, you know, as a litigator, or something adjacent, and whether it'd be like in the policy world, or nonprofits or the government. But, you know, ultimately, none of it was, was grabbing me and was inspiring me. And I felt pretty good for a while. And I think that's in large part because I was not willing to consider looking outside of law, like I had invested so much time in energy, and effort in getting these credentials in having, you know, worked super hard to get where I got and, and I don't think I was willing to look outside of law for a long time. And it wasn't really until I was very ready to make a change, and started seeing some other possibilities that I started to consider maybe that there would be other options. So one of my wife's good friends made a career transition from being kind of in the business world, and in the tech world as a product manager into being software engineering, and I had done that in her early 30s and had gone through the coding boot camp route. And,

Neil Metzler: 14:06

and what did she studied? Josh, you told me

Josh: 14:10

she wasn't she has an MBA. So she had been kind of in the business world before that. And then she I think she had encountered she was a product manager at a tech company. And then that's kind of what sort of prompted her I think, to get exposed to software engineering and to, you know, make the jump herself. So that kind of blew my mind. Honestly, I was like, wait, what your 30s After getting like, an advanced degree, you're telling me you can there's programs out there that will help you completely transition your career into into software engineering in a completely different field than the one you're in? And that you know, I think I'm definitely lucky that she is as close to my wife as she is. because it was like, very, as a result in my face, and I really got to spend some time talking with her about it. And she was very generous and with and her husband who's also in tech, with with their time and, and helping me sort of see what was out there and talking me through what the industry looked like and what that path look like. And it just became clear to me like, Oh, this is really possible. It was mind blowing. Yeah.

Neil Metzler: 15:25

So, at this time, you've seen someone close to you use this lever of bootcamp to make that change. What else? What other conversations were you having or activities like you were doing? I know, you mentioned you did some mind mapping exercises. And you were reading up on a couple of different theories about I think self discovery and in career pathing, is that right?

Josh: 15:47

Yeah, I mean, around this point where I'm starting to consider non law possibilities, I'm doing a lot of soul searching, I know that I'm really ready to make a change. One, and it's kind of interesting, looking back on some of these exercises in carnival, how they pointed me there, but a friend had put me on to this book called The artists way, which is, you know, been a very inspiring book to me in a lot of ways. And it's about, it's about creativity, it's about spirituality. But it has a lot of exercises, and like brainstorming exercises in it. And one of them was like lists, you know, 10 things you love doing. And then the one that the first inkling, I think that I haven that coding had kind of like come back on the horizon was like list lists 10 or 20 things you used to love doing that you used to used to love doing that you haven't done a long time. And you know, I had to like wrack my brain for that. And coding was one of them. I was like, Damn, that was one thing. As part of this, I also was like, looking back through my college transcript on oddly enough, and I was looking back and I was like, damn, like, I didn't think about this. But those were like my best grades that year was the C++ stuff. I was like, that was way better than the stuff I had remembered myself doing better. And for some reason, I hadn't remembered the, you know, thriving in those courses. And then I'd also done a look like a mind mapping exercise, which I actually have pulled out in front of me, which is wild right here. And this was I want to say this is another friend of my wife, who had put her on to a book called The authentic career that it was a mind map about, like potential careers have what I'm looking for deal breakers, people I could talk to. And you can see here, there's like, it's kind of all over the place. It's like academia, legal academia, non legal academia. Computer programming is on there nonprofits like policy, think tanks. There's a lot of options on there. And I'm going through the muscle listing, like various people that you know, potential connections around things like law teaching people in the in the tech world, people know, like, you know, policy, nonprofit world. Yeah. Those were those were definitely kind of a few of the things I think that pushed me, you know, pushed me towards that made me realize that this could be potentially a possibility. The I mean, the next step was sort of having had a discussion with my race friend who'd done the boot camp thing and getting the lay of the land of what Boot Camps are out there. I started doing research. And I went to boot camp called Flatiron School here in New York. And they have, they have like a free online course you can take. That is sort of bootcamp prep course. Right. So I should, you know, my my friend was like, just start taking so there's so many online resources now, which I blew my mind because I'm, again, thinking of coding either as like a 10 year old in the 90s, or, you know, C++ in college, which was like a, you know, you had a huge textbook and a text editor. And that was about it. Anyway, start taking the courses, pull it down. And it was just like, boom, it's like, yeah, this is this was it? This was the thing. Just like, totally struck me just kind of visceral, honestly. Yeah, it was. It was quite some, I'm now thinking of this too. I had this dream write about that day, same day, almost where I was hit by an asteroid. And it was like a great, I mean, this is like, you can't make this stuff up when topically. Yeah, kind of like symbolic analysis, you know. And

Neil Metzler: 19:33

then there are humanities folks inside because myself in political science and yourself in political philosophy, and political philosophy and law, because sometimes, you know, less than or not, not natural fits, let's say in tech. So you've told listeners about your experience with coding and your passion for it. But can you tell us actually a little bit how you manage that self doubt that self doubt or imposter syndrome that we see Sometimes when we see people who have the profile, and we wonder if we could be one of them, too. Yeah, I

Josh: 20:07

mean, I think that it's probably one of the reasons why I just never thought of this as a possibility for many, many years. A lot of my friends growing up, or did a much more traditional path of like, you know, math and science superstar on to prestigious computer science degree on to fancy software engineering careers. And, you know, I think that having seen that my assumption was, that was kind of the only way forward. And I'm definitely like a kind of humanities like words and logic philosophy kind of guy. I'm not nearly as much of a math and science guy at all. So I think for that reason, I just didn't think it was really a possibility. For the longest time, I think, by the time that the bootcamp thing had come along, and seen my wife's friend with this background, and in the business world, I think at that point, I started to see like, this industry is like really opening up in a very different way than it was when I was in high school in college, it's growing incredibly fast. They are eager for people with different backgrounds and different perspectives to contribute. And there is a path into the field for people that do not have a computer science degree. So I don't think it wasn't, you know, I really credit like, the boot camps and flat iron. And those people are what made this possible in a lot of ways. I don't think I personally would have made this leap had that infrastructure not been there, you know, thank God, it was because it made it made the transition just so much more seamless than it ever would have been, if I was like trying to learn to code on my own and, or, you know, learn to code and at a professional level, and then trying to figure out my way in through the interview process and into the market. And I think that, honestly, the industry changed more than anything. Now, in retrospect, I do have, you know, I have friends who don't have that background, who had been in tech for a long time, too. I think in another world, if I was differently, a different kind of person, I, you know, there are plenty of people who did this before boot camps came out, and were able to get into the industry without the traditional path. But I wasn't, I just didn't know too many of them. And it wasn't like, this just was not a possibility that I was aware of, I would say, you know, another thing that they stressed at the bootcamp to about the math and science thing is like, there's way less math involved with this for the average, like, you know, software engineer, web developer. Yes, there's some math, of course, but it's nothing that you can't handle if you completed, you know, basic college or high school math. You know, by and large, it's almost all logic and like, it was like, okay, hey, political philosophy, followed by law like this is this is my bread and butter. So that was kind of a much more seamless transition. I think, in that respect, I'm so used to dealing with these like, you know, logical manipulations, I guess. I was sort of relieved to realize like, there's very, very little math and like, if you're not a math person, don't let that discourage you from code, if you like code.

Neil Metzler: 23:13

So Josh, before you started at your boot camp experience, which I'd like to speak about him, and it was it was it scary for you to commit to the boot camp? Because it is such a tangible sign right of us making a change in conversations with friends or family? Do you remember that time being challenging in any way? Yeah,

Josh: 23:34

I mean, it's it was a huge transition. It was a risk. It was a huge change. It was intense. I mean, I was I was very ready to make a transition at that point. So it was good. And I was psyched on that. I think that personally, I had gotten to a point where I felt confident making this change. And I felt like I had enough safety. I had the I had a cushion built up where I could make this take a little bit of a risk. But yeah, absolutely. It's like, I'm a risk averse species. I'm a lawyer, you know, it's like I'm, I'm like, super risk averse, right. So you know, I think one thing that helped me was the boot camp, like, publishes job placement numbers, their placement numbers are excellent. I definitely did my due diligence and like talking to graduates hearing their stories, you know, they're from everything I was seeing was that this was going to be this was going to be like a safe path. And one that would be that would be promising. I mean, I think it's speaks to the fact that I was taken with it as much as I was that I was willing to make that kind of risk is such a take that kind of leap as a risk averse person. Yeah, I mean, it's there's no doubt Yeah, career transitions are even in retrospect, I see. You know, how I was going to be fine regardless of what happened. It still just can be. It can be absolutely terrifying. Yeah, for sure. Not so much. doing it a little bit what I thought then was an old age of my early 30s. And I'm in my late 30s. But, you know, at that point, it's like, okay, I have friends who have been in their careers for a long time, and they're starting to move into more senior positions, whether that's an attack or law or whatever. And it's like, Oh, I'm gonna start over in certain ways. And that's just like, wow, that's that's like, kind of kind of it when you put it that way. It seems like it's this huge risk. But you know, I would say that it's really not starting over like you don't lose your professional experience, you don't lose the all the things you've learned in the skills that you've gained and your your viewpoints. And yeah, and I found that there's like a tremendous translate ability between a lot of what I did as a lawyer to my work as a software engineer. So that's really anything. Yeah.

Neil Metzler: 25:52

So tell us a few examples. And I know many of your colleagues as well, at your current company come from non traditional backgrounds, so to speak, right?

Josh: 26:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A lot of Bootcamp grads, a lot of people from lots of different industries, some people from more traditional paths as well, but it's a, you know, diverse mix of backgrounds, which I really like people bring a lot of different, different perspectives. I mean, so from law, I've already kind of hit on the logic part, I think that there's a lot of similarities in the kind of law I was practicing, which was very, based around crafting legal arguments based on precedent, I think there's a lot of similar kinds of thinking involved in coding and how you set up logic, logical structures, I guess. So there's that I was primarily a writer, as a lawyer, a brief writer, and I think coding is writing. At the end of the day, like you were writing, yes, of course, the computer has to be able to parse it and execute it, but you're really writing for other people to come to your code base, and be able to work in it and extend it and maintain it. So I really do view it as a writing job in a lot of ways. And then I'm in a consultant role, and it's a client services role. And so was working in a law firm, and a lot of those skills are directly translatable, like really getting to know your client's industry and their what's important to them and getting the lay of the land of sort of their business environment, and then being able to make recommendations based on that. I mean, I think that is like, directly translatable. That's exactly what we do. You know, working with other people, just the basics of being a professional, like all the all these things like, if you make a career transition a little bit later, you know, this, these things are not going to leave you and you'll be able to continue to draw on them. You're not You're not really starting from scratch in in most respects, I would say I did this. It's like a, it was the bootcamp prep course that flat on offer. So that was like it was actually fairly involved. Yeah, that was I forget, it was like a 40 or 80 hour course or something like that. So I had done that. And like culminates in building your own little video game and stuff. I was like, okay, cool. This is very early. So I had done that. And I think it what that validated for me was like, I like doing this a lot. And I got a really good sense of what the teaching style and what the curriculum was going to be like and flatter. So that was the main like homework I did. And that got me prepped up to do the entrance, interview and exam for flat iron, and like, prepares you very well. And

Neil Metzler: 28:21

when you rocked up to flatiron for this interview, and exam, did you have any feelings of like, Wow, am I Are people gonna think I'm weird for doing this? Or did you immediately feel at home?

Josh: 28:34

I think there's the stress of coding in front of someone which, you know, I think we all still have. But no, I had done enough research on on fighter and kind of known their story and like how common it was for career switchers. I talked to the admissions office, they're like, oh, yeah, I thought I was first of all, I was like, the only lawyer to ever leave law and go into computer into sovereign. Sure. They were like, no, no, no, we have we have a couple every cohort and then we have a cohort every month or something like that. So it's like, okay, that's good to know. I'm not alone. But yeah, I do felt Yeah, I felt like, you know, this was this made sense. It was not, not something at that point that I felt like, Oh, God, what am I doing here? But now I was like this, this feels like this feels right.

Neil Metzler: 29:17

And how did that experience Josh then prepare you and open doors for professional, you know, job placements and opportunities after you graduated and finished boot camp?

Josh: 29:27

Yes. So that what I was describing was sort of like the pre boot camp course. And then the boot camp itself is flat earns about a three month course. In person at that point, there's a job search portion, which you know, for most people is a month as well. So but when you're all said and done between the pre work and the boot camp and job search, it's like the better part of a year. So this whole program, I think is what got me where I am and got me the confidence. You know, it was a nice progression of Learning the materials of the basics you would need, you know, day one of a web developer job culminates in a in a personal project. So you have one of their their, like different modules, I believe they're two or three weeks. So their last module as you're doing your own personal project I had fun doing one about it was parsing your bank records from mint.com. And comparing it against a database of campaign finance data and seeing like, where the companies you spent money at had donated politically and then throwing that up on on like, some graphs. Yeah, visualizing. Yeah, some visualization so that I had a lot of fun with that. And then they were they were, yeah, my, my hat is off to them. They were excellent in terms of career services, and they were great and hustling to get us interviews. Yeah. And I mean, I credit them for for landing, or I did in large part. So yeah, I mean, I felt like I had a lot of structure and support. And that was crucial for me, like, yeah, I felt, I felt like the program was just designed to, to get me where I needed to go. And yeah, it worked.

Neil Metzler: 31:08

If you know me, you know, I'm concerned about gender gap in tech. Women in big data are a nonprofit building the data science and engineering workforce of our future, because there cannot be equity in society, without equity in data collection, curation and decisions, learn about the new data revolution, and how you can be a part of the solution at women in big data, Doc. So you've spoken about the arriving at that authenticity, and the, you know, the performance and the satisfaction we get from from that?

Josh: 31:43

Yeah, I mean, I think the importance of being authentic is professional and like, that was that was a big one for me, like, I feel authentic as a professional in this career, in this position, whereas I don't know that I truly ever, like felt authentic as a professional, I could I could put up a professional front and did authentically enjoy a lot of aspects of that work. But I didn't feel like I was authentically, myself as a professional, that role. Whereas here, yeah, I'm like, this. It's me. i It's a professional version of me, but it's very much me. Like I feel very, very, I guess, comfortable. Just being myself. It just feels very authentic, which is like, kind of mind blowing to me. I was.

Neil Metzler: 32:23

So Josh, you mentioned about humility. Why was humility, important to you? And what should people be aware of if they're thinking about making a big change?

Josh: 32:31

Yeah, and I say this to, you know, to new hires, at our organization, too. But I think it's especially important for career changers, that if especially if you're later in your career, there is an element in which you're, you have a ton to learn. And I think the number one thing that helped me was just humility, and being willing to come in with the perspective of everyone here has something to teach me regardless of age or background. And just being willing to be a beginner, you know, and ask questions like, ask the stupid question a quote unquote, stupid question, like, just ask when you're confused. And that's how you learn, you know, and I think that that was definitely an important part of the mindset of making this transition is like, I'm, I'm really willing and able to learn from whoever has something to teach me. So you've

Neil Metzler: 33:21

arrived in this new role. And you've also had career progression in this role. So tell me about your first year or two and share a little bit about your career path? Yeah.

Josh: 33:35

So I work at a software consultancy, and we, you know, help companies, various industries, build apps basically. And so I would say early, early in your career, it's more focused about learning the fundamentals, and just the basics of being able to contribute to, to these projects, a lot of my time was spent on an app having to do with selling contact lenses. And that was just a great experience. Seeing the seeing the project itself go from kind of proof of concept all the way to like a national launch, and getting to learn just more and more of the stack as I went along. And that was kind of was my approach is like, try to learn one part, get comfortable with that, then like treading on another part, keep building in that way. And then as I mean, as my career has progressed, it's now I'm now leading one of the one of the streams of a larger project and, you know, working with the team of junior engineers, and that is, that's been great. And it's a very different kind of experience where you are kind of responsible for managing a team making sure that they're unblocked making sure that all the you know the engineers are working well with the designers and the product people and the QA people. Making sure that sort of the the team is running well. And guiding, guiding junior engineers making sure everyone's learning happy has what they need and feels heard that kind of thing. So yeah, it's definitely it's It has progressed from sort of being the kind of maybe the guy in the corner with the Zodiac on the headphones and venue and the computer and trying to get my ticket done to sort of having a more my, I don't know, more global interaction with the different facets of the project, I would say is kind of the transition.

Neil Metzler: 35:18

We've talked about how you acquired some of the hard skills for this role. What are some of the soft skills that you use? And why do you think soft skills are important in tech? Yeah,

Josh: 35:29

I mean, they're, they're hugely important, especially in role as a consultant, I think I mean, we are we do client services, and we're here to help clients meet their meet their business goals, you know. So I think communication is like, is key, being able to communicate, a lot of what we do is communicating technical ideas to non technical or quasi technical audiences, being able to explain stuff to people in a clear and concise way, I think is huge. And that is, I mean, I really do credit, you know, a lot of my legal background with that I've really got quite an education and in, you know, being a clear and concise communicator. And certainly the writing is, has come through whether that's blogging or whether that's, you know, again, just communicating technically being able to express these ideas. And then of course, it's just like the elements of working with a team and being able to communicate with others know when to ask for help know when to raise a raise a flag knowing, you know, where to how to ask questions, that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean, I think I think it's usually important, I think it's probably what differentiates a lot of people's careers more than their hard skills would be my guess, at least in certainly in like a consulting role. Yeah, it's hugely important at

Neil Metzler: 36:47

time of recording here in November 2021. You are currently in a tech lead role. Correct? And do you have direct reports currently? Yeah, yeah. And so I wanted to toss a question to you about dei and inclusion here. And so you are working in engineering. And we've talked about the work that you do. And I wanted to ask you, if you can share about why inclusion is important, and what it looks like, especially in a software engineering context.

Josh: 37:20

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's important because it enriches your team and enriches your working life. I think having people from different backgrounds is is incredibly important. I think it's definitely yeah, enriched my experience. And I think it's about hopefully making people from different backgrounds feel feel welcome and feel heard. And, you know, I think it's a lot of it just comes to me and comes down to just being being a decent individual and trying to be empathetic to I mean, we talked about this, but I mean, in a lot of ways, I'm in a tech outsider, as someone who's not from like a math and science background doesn't have a CS degree. So I can totally relate. And also just remembering what it was to be a beginner and being willing to, like, help people and pay it forward, I think is. Yeah, that's how that's a high level, how I look at some of those issues in tech.

Neil Metzler: 38:12

So Josh, we talked together before we recorded about the role of prestige in our decision making paths in our academic and professional paths. Why did you think of that prestigious topic when we sat down today?

Josh: 38:28

Yeah, I mean, I think I found myself in, you know, fairly prestigious company. And that's, that's great. And I'm grateful for that. But I think what I what I've learned through this, and what helped in making this career transition that might help others who are in like, prestigious places, but maybe that's not fulfilling them is that that part of it ultimately, doesn't matter. What matters is, are you doing something meaningful? Are you engaged? are you contributing? Are you able to authentically Be yourself? Those kinds of things. And I think that that I knew that for some time, but I think really coming to terms with the fact that like, prestige, and even money, like these things are not what are going to fulfill you at the end of the day. And being willing to kind of toss prestige overboard and be like, listen, I just need to do something that is meaningful and engaging, and fulfilling, regardless of whether it's quote, unquote, prestigious. So I do think that like that can be even for people who aren't necessarily and I didn't think of myself as so attached to the prestige, but when you get into these prestigious worlds, it can be feel like you're giving something up by going to something that no one's heard of, or is not, you know, quote unquote, as prestigious. But yeah, I mean, I think that's an important was definitely important realization to me is like how little that ultimately mattered to me.

Neil Metzler: 39:55

How did this play into your dilemma, which We sometimes face about this sunk cost dilemma.

Josh: 40:03

Yeah, great point. Yeah, I mean, I had devoted so much time and energy and money to getting legal education, you know, getting into positions that I had gotten into getting into debt, getting out of debt. A lot, you know, a tremendous amount of sunk costs had led to me getting where I did in my career. And of course, one thing, one of the things you learn in, in law school is the sunk cost fallacy, which is that, you know, sunk costs should not be consulted in determining what's the right next move. It's if it's the right next move. It's the right next move, regardless of the sunk cost. And I think the sunk cost fallacy is very real. And it's, that's another hard thing to kind of get yourself around is that, yeah, I may have spent a lot of time money and effort getting where I got, but is this the right thing for me now? You know, is this the right maybe it was the right thing for me when I was younger, but maybe now it's not the right thing, when I'm getting older and start to look at having a family, that kind of thing. I think it's really, it's really important to try to get away from that and look at what is going to be the right thing for you. Now,

Neil Metzler: 41:17

tell me about the balance that you have now. Because I think that is a great logical next step.

Josh: 41:25

Yeah. For sure, I mean, I'm, I'm fortunate to have found myself with a company that really does value work life balance, and I've found that to just be completely essential for, for me as a professional and as a person. That's not something that was always possible to achieve as a litigator. And I don't think anyone will be shocked to know that being a litigator is an incredibly demanding lifestyle involves quite a lot of sacrifice, in terms of work life balance, so yeah, being in it being in a place where I feel that the work life balance is right. And I'm able to see my family, see my friends, pursue hobbies, play music, and, and continue to be energized and enthusiastic about coding. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, in addition to just like, liking coding, like having the having the space, I think, is like a huge help. And then you can get to a place which I didn't think was possible, where it's like, Okay, I'm going by, I'm off today, but I'm going back to work tomorrow. Like, I'm kind of psyched to, like, this coding, I'm really looking forward to doing and, like, that's awesome. You know, it's like, such a, such a blessing. But I think it the work life balance is, at least for me, is key.

Neil Metzler: 42:42

You mentioned, Josh, about how this has rekindled some of your hobbies, including music, by is that by giving you the space and a little bit of energy and time to explore them again. Tell me about that.

Josh: 42:56

Yeah, um, for sure. Well, you know, actually, when I was, I was working as a lawyer, the law firm I was at, actually had a law firm band that would play once a year, and they took it quite seriously. And, you know, I credit that with really getting me playing again, I'm a bass player, and I played music throughout high school and college, but kind of lost the thread in law school, I ended up picking it back up at the law firm to this law firm band. And as I was sort of transitioning to a new career and had the kind of time and space to get back into that I got to really kind of throw myself back into that and, and realize, you know, how important that is for me. And, yeah, it's amazing to have the time and space to, to pursue those things that are meaningful. And and do it in in, you know, a serious way. So, that's been Yeah, that's also been huge.

Neil Metzler: 43:50

So Josh, you have told me that building is important to you? What do you mean by building? And why is it important to you?

Josh: 43:57

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it's one of the main things I learned about myself is that I need to feel like I am, I'm building something. And that that is ultimately what is fulfilling is that I'm creating something. And I think software engineering is just like, such a pure expression of that, where you get to feel like you're, you're building up something, you're building up a product or an app for for someone to use, you're thinking of ways to make it better. You're continuing to iterate on it. And I think that that kind of sense of I'm, I'm building something, I'm creating something. I'm contributing something. I think I realized that like that, that's kind of what what is ultimately motivating me. Yeah, much more than then winning a contest with someone. Yeah, I'm much more motivated by the satisfaction of like, okay, I built something really cool. I built something that hopefully is gonna be useful to someone. Yeah, I think that's that's like, that's ultimately what if I had to sum up the whole thing like that that is the career transition there.

Neil Metzler: 45:02

I think that sense about you really comes across, you know, in this interview and as well, as I've seen you as we grew up together, and yes, I hope that others can take some inspiration from that as well. Thank you again. You've listened to your next big thing. If you like what you've heard, please drop a like and subscribe, and you can always keep in touch with us at Cloud champions dotnet