Neil Metzler: 0:00

Hello, listeners, Neil here, I need to warn you that this episode contains a description of intimate partner violence. Listener discretion is advised. If you or someone you know is at risk in the United States, please go to ywca.org for worldwide resources or to donate your time or funds to stopping intimate partner violence. Please see our show notes. Thank you. This season, I hope you realize that your next big thing is about more than careers, and there is a human being underneath that armor. I'm especially grateful for guests willingness to share their dreams, setbacks and wisdom with our audience. With this in mind, I hope you enjoy this episode. You're listening to your next big thing. My name is Neil Metzler and I'm a Career Coach and startup mentor in tech. In this series of podcasts, you will hear inspiring stories of career reinventions stories of folks who made a change, to find fulfilment from work and satisfaction from life. Even in this time of disruption. I hope you can take some perspective insight and learn how to do what you love and love what you do. My guest today is MJ Pham. We spoke about her approach to career reinvention. Her impressive career arc spans from Fortune magazine in New York to serving in Cambodia, Saudi Arabia and Washington with the US State Department to her current career in communications and marketing at Google. MJ is an entrepreneur and founder of the silk Tiko, where she crafts powerful tea blends that make a social impact. MJ is a two time winner of US national Journalism Awards and was selected for the Pickering Fellowship in US Foreign Affairs. moonlighting as a gastro diplomacy scholar. Her work has been cited by the Museum of Modern Art in New York, the Yale review of International Studies and public diplomacy magazine. During her current tenure at Google, her communications portfolio included responsible innovation and AI principles, including an event for Deep Mind and AlphaGo, the first computer program to defeat a professional human Go player, and the first to defeat a go world champion. Anyone with an interest in reinventing their career, starting their own business, breaking into big tech, or heeding the call for public service will benefit from this episode. I hope you enjoy it. So Mary Jo farm, welcome to your next big thing.

MJ: 2:34

Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here.

Neil Metzler: 2:37

Yeah, thanks for being here. We have known each other since university, we have each had different career arc since since then. And it is really a pleasure to sit down with you and hear about your story. And I understand you will take our listeners through your journey, starting in public service, starting in government and working internationally there. And then your move into big tech, where you find yourself today. And finally, or plus, we get to talk about your premium tea business, which you have grown and scaled globally as an entrepreneur on top of your responsibilities. So I'm really excited to hear about that. And I think our audience will really gain from hearing your experience. So Mary, Mary Jo, thank you for being here.

MJ: 3:25

Thank you so much for having me, Neil. And it truly is an honor. And I'm humbled that you asked me to join you on your show. And I'm just so thrilled that you're doing this incredible service for the community globally by inviting people to share their experiences and and thoughtfully asking them questions about their paths. And thank you again for having me. Yes,

Neil Metzler: 3:48

yeah, I, I understand that you have faced some decisions, you weighed some opportunities and risks. So I think you're a great guide for our audience as we seek to understand, you know, how we make choices and what those choices mean to us. So in the first part of the program, I'd like to speak with you about how you began to think about the changes or decisions you made, and also how you validated those new paths. We're going to then learn about how you built that bridge to your next big thing. And then finally, we'll explore how you've learned from that what that's meant to you. So Mary Jo, my first question for you is, take us back to your time after university when you were making your first decisions about what you wanted your career to look like, what was important to you, and how did that shape your decisions?

MJ: 4:45

Sure. I I think back to that time, and I'm just floored by how much responsibility is put upon the shoulders of young people who are 2122 years old. And I'm making the first career major career decision right after graduating. And I have to, I think I'll have to preface by starting going back even a bit further, and ensuring that, you know, I, I'm a first generation, Vietnamese American woman, and I grew up in Springfield, Massachusetts, I was born in Michigan, but I grew up in Springfield, Massachusetts, the home of basketball, and water, where Dr. Seuss is from. And I was raised by a single mom, who is a refugee from the Vietnam War. And I was really fortunate because my mom was sponsored to the US as a single expectant mom, by a very kind family of American strangers, the scratches of Grand Haven, Michigan, and they and their community, they opened their doors to my mom. And a few months after she arrived in the US as as a refugee. I was born. And I am so lucky, and so fortunate to be born in American, especially when I consider how I how easily I could have been born in a refugee camp in Thailand, where my mom spent almost two grueling years. And she came to this country as a political refugee, for her beliefs. And she believed so much in democracy. And I grew up with a single mom who raised me with very American values of respecting diversity of, of exercising my rights in this democracy, and then also contributing, my mom always said, you know, you have to pay it forward, we might not be able to pay back the really kind family, that gave us the chance of a lifetime an opportunity to pursue the American dream and build a new life, but you can pay it forward. And so in high school, junior high through high school, even into college, when I was at Tufts, with you, I, I pursued journalism, because I thought, writing and reporting could really help shape and inform the decision makers and community stakeholders that need to know crucial critical information so that everybody can make better decisions and be more well informed. And for the longest time, I thought, wow, like, maybe I can make a difference. If I if I continue with reporting, and I had wonderful opportunities in that space. I even had the opportunity to be a contributor for Fortune magazine. So at the same time, though, when when I got to university, I realized that there were so many careers that I hadn't even considered, I had no idea that I could have the opportunity to be a US diplomat. And so it was during my freshman year that I started to learn more my first year in university that I started to learn more about the opportunities at the state, the US Department of State afforded to individuals curious about foreign policy. And that was, I think, the first time I made a major decision in my career. So I very young career, so. But by the time you were in university, I had won two national journalism awards. And I was deciding between a career in journalism and a career in public service as a diplomat. And I remember just feeling the call of going abroad, of leaving the safety and security of the United States, much to my mother's chagrin, I think she was like, Look, yeah, I, I got myself on a boat to get out of Southeast Asia, why on earth would you ever want to go back? And to me, I thought that would be a full circle, if I could to help serve my country and work in foreign policy to prevent wars and conflict and promote trade. That would be the ideal, right? And so yeah, that was like the first big decision I made.

Neil Metzler: 9:12

So you're getting signals already, that you're when you put your hand to paper, put the pen to paper in the journalism field, you're seeing results, you're getting recognition. And at the same time, you're feeling this poll to go abroad. And was that scary for you? Was that exciting? And you also, you also told us about how it led to some challenging conversations. When you presented friends or family with the idea that you might be soon moving far away from them.

MJ: 9:50

Sure. It to me personally, it was exciting. I've always felt drawn to what was beyond us borders because growing up Even though I'm, I'm a born American, as my mom would would say, I grew up in a multicultural household, bilingual, I spoke Vietnamese and English as a child. And, and so I always felt like my identity belonged elsewhere. And I always wanted to be part of a larger community beyond the community that that I knew and grew up in. And so it seemed like the natural step and of course, journalism helped introduce the idea that I could be potentially a foreign correspondent, maybe I would be a war correspondent, or I'd go overseas and report from one of the news agencies overseas. And so it didn't seem that far off, you know. But to serve the government, that kind of that was really eye opening, because I just felt very grateful and like, I had to pay forward and pay pay, pay back all of the all of the good fortune that I've received, I could have just gone on that path. It seems like it wouldn't be that difficult to get my next internship at job offer. But the unknown really did backing me and I, my logic behind making a pivot from journalism to government service was was just thinking, Okay, I used to think that if news that if news reporters could inform our political leaders and government officials, then there would be better decisions.

Neil Metzler: 11:40

You've completed the last two years of bachelor, your master's degree. And now we're progressing forward through, you've been through several assignments now. And we're going to pick up with the audience here, actually, during your assignment ins in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And I'd like to ask you, you've told me a very powerful personal story and professional story here during the brief. So I want to give you space to share what you'd like with your audience. And, and then let us know how this led to your decision about what you what you wanted to discover next.

MJ: 12:18

Absolutely, yeah. So I was really fortunate to have had the opportunity to study Arabic full time in 2013, before going off to Saudi Arabia, for my assignment as an Economic Officer at the embassy in Riyadh there. And in 2014, in 2015, I was working in Saudi Arabia. And it was such an instructive experience. And I've met some of the most treasured people in my life in Saudi Arabia, some really lovely friends. And I just encountered such warmth from the community there. And also, some really, I would say, just life changing experiences, actually. And so professionally, in Saudi Arabia, I had the honor of working on several state visits from Secretary Kerry's visit to Saudi Arabia to President Obama's visit to Saudi Arabia with the First Lady. And it was funny, I was just looking at this the other night, I'm showing me all right now, like this is a letter from from President Obama house?

Neil Metzler: 13:27

Yes. Wow. Okay. With the signature, like, yeah, with a signature deal. Okay.

MJ: 13:35

Yeah, yeah, it's a big deal. And, and, you know, he had written to me because I had helped Mrs. J to July 20 2015. But I'd helped with a, his visit to, to the kingdom. And, you know, he said, Your efforts are vital, not only for preparing officials, for preparing official visits, but also for representing our nation, by devoting your talent, time and energy to the cause of diplomacy, you are helping forge a bright future for our country in the world. And it was so just I was floored, I never expected to receive anything like that for my work. And, but I was having such a wonderful time professionally working in Saudi Arabia, and I was focused on economic issues and trade. And it was such an exciting time because the kingdom was really changing the landscape with infrastructure projects, and the, the, the opportunity for women to work and to have more mobility was always on the table. And it was it was it was a very important time to be there as a woman as a, as a as an Asian American and and just as a, as just such a person to see how a country can can change and develop so quickly. And then, of course, Like, even though, professionally, how do we want to say this? Professionally, I felt like I was excelling. And that I had really was finding my footing doing this work. I personally, I actually realized that I was on a daily basis surviving an abusive and violent marriage. And so in 2015, things came to a head, and I had to get to safety. And I did so by actually having to leave in an urgent situation in the middle of the night, leaving my my assignment and my work to return to the safety of the United States to to, to get away from an abusive and violent marriage. And immediately after that, that was in 2015, April 2015. I was enrolled in the YWCA is domestic violence and abuse recovery program. And I was able to be protected by a restraining order in the state of Massachusetts against against my abuser, and I got a divorce, and really had the opportunity then to evaluate my, my, my career and in my life and what I wanted for my life. Because I felt so lucky Neal to be alive to have survived. Such a such a difficult situation. And I had no idea while I was in it, just how high the water was rising around me, metaphorically speaking. And so 2015 was a big turning point for me. It was exactly five years from the date of, you know, 2010 was when I, I learned that I had gotten the fellowship, finally, after initial reduction. And then 2015 was a fork in the road, would I want to continue to pursue this career in the Foreign Service where I had the opportunity of a lifetime. And, and it truly was a lifetime appointment? To start with the opportunity with with the chance of potentially maybe one day rising to the Senior Foreign Service, potentially being asked by a president to serve as an ambassador. I had to consider that against, you know, how did I see my life unfolding going forward?

Neil Metzler: 17:42

Thank you for sharing that. MJ.

MJ: 17:46

Thank you. Thank you, Neil. Yeah, it is it is difficult. And I share that because, you know, for a long time, I kept that to myself, because I was afraid that it would brand me and Mark me in a way that I didn't want it to. But I realized that at least one in four, just American women, women in the United States have survived some kind of abuse or domestic violence. And and the more we speak about it, the more those of us who are survivors, or those of us who are just going through it, or those of us who've, who should be warned, yeah, the more we speak about it, the more we can be informed. Yeah. And the more we could stay safe.

Neil Metzler: 18:30

I know that you have a very exciting page coming up next. And before we touch on that, and that, that new journey, could you just share a little bit more about how, or what, what, how you decided that it was time to change, change industry, as you did?

MJ: 18:55

Absolutely. You know, I took advantage of the State Department's internal career coaching program, and they met with a coach in Washington, DC, who asked me, Mary Jo, do you see yourself? How badly do you want to become an ambassador? And, and, you know, is that something that you really want? And I said, Well, what do you mean, she's like, is that your dream? And I looked at her. And I didn't say anything. And I was just kind of considering the question. She said, Well, MJ, what about assistant secretary and assistant secretary is an incredible title and very, a lot of position within within the Department of State. And I kind of looked at her and I was like, shrugging my shoulders up, and not in a disrespectful way, but I was really kind of at a loss. I was like, I'm not i Nothing within me is telling me yes, they want to be Assistant Secretary of State. And then she leaned forward and she said, Mary Jo, what if you were asked to be The Secretary of State for the United States of America, hypothetically, but hypothetically, of course, hypothetically, years from now, decades and decades from now. And I said, you know, of course, if I was asked, you know, if my if my country asked me to serve, I will serve, you know that that was my answer. She's like, but you're not saying that. That's what you want. And that's the moment where I realized that so much of my narrative has been shaped by my upbringing. As a first generation American, you know, I'm so grateful to be here. I'm so lucky and fortunate, I need to get I need to serve, what can I do to be helpful? I, up until 2015, I'd never considered what did I truly want for myself as an individual, I was always facing outward looking at the community saying, Well, I'm here, I'm just lucky to be here. Well, I should do something to, to, to make sure that I'm useful that I am helping somebody in this community. And I never thought about helping myself. And so that was a moment where I realized I really need to began to listen to myself, because I didn't even know what my preferences were.

Neil Metzler: 21:15

That is a great lesson. And as a great takeaway, to find that space to pause and reflect,

MJ: 21:22

you know, some sometimes assignments at the State Department are given on you're given based on on your regional expertise and language qualifications. And sometimes they're not, absolutely not at all. And so many older friends and mentors in the department had shared over the years that they miss weddings and family events, and graduations and life back home in the US, and they felt like satellites, just you know, every so often rotating across the sky, the US, but never quite being there. And I realized that that wasn't the life that was so exciting for me anymore, when you're 20. And you're looking at that, it sounds like the greatest adventure of all time, when you're 25. And you're looking at how you're going to structure your 30s. And then on, you realize, oh, maybe I want to have a say in where I live, maybe want to, to decide to live somewhere that I choose, independently of any government or, or formal assignment. So that's when I started looking out across the professional landscape. And I thought to myself, well, what do I do now? I've been so specialized for the last few years. Nearly my entire undergraduate and graduate career has been focused on foreign policy, becoming a diplomat. Now I'm here I've made it. And, you know, there were some good affirmations to I, when I joined every single diplomatic class has a peer nominated award that they award to one person in each diplomatic cohort. It's called the Glenn Munroe award. And when I took my oath of office and formally completed my my diplomatic training, my classmates in the 100 and 72nd diplomatic cohort class, they gave out a word to me, and I felt immense responsibility and guilt, about even thinking about leaving, you know, because they were like, We believe in you. You're You're, you're like the diplomats diplomat, like you should. And so I felt so guilty, Neal, like, how could I think of leaving, I'm supposed to be doing this. And also, there's, you know, you grew up as a first generation American whose parent survived a devastating war, you cling to security. So changing jobs or changing careers, changing networks, cities, countries, that's these are huge considerations. And if I were to leave the government, I no longer have the Department of State, facilitating international moves are helping me with my personal security. So you know, if there are big decisions to be made, and I just had to tune into what I felt. And that's something that I think gets stamped out of us when sometimes when we're in, you know, the working in a lot of working professions for so long. We're so we become conditioned to doing our jobs and doing our duty, that we can even ignore feelings of discomfort or feelings of curiosity that we have about other endeavors, careers, hobbies, and we're just so focused on getting the job done.

Neil Metzler: 25:01

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MJ: 25:28

I just wanted to, I just have always wanted to be part of the fabric of humanity, I wanted to be interwoven in something bigger than myself. So for a long time serving my country's government seems like that that thing like the calling, and there, there is truly no better feeling than walking into a building and seeing the flag and, and realizing that you're serving the nation. It there's nothing better than that. For me personally, still, even today, even as as as I've gone on in my career, but I did realize that I wanted to feel connected not only to my government and the people of the United States of America, but to other people too. And so obviously, when you work for one government, you work for one government. So I wanted to find a work that could transcend governments, and I thought about Nonprofit Careers, I thought about international consulting. And then I realized that the internet connects everyone. Technology connects everyone. And if it hasn't yet, it will the internet in meshes, every single one of us. And if it hasn't, yet, it will. And I just realized I need to be a part of the internet. And we were better than Google. And that was the start of my next employment adventure.

Neil Metzler: 26:50

And in the background, there is a trend developing in the industry. Or I should say, a new shape or a different focus on artificial intelligence, and the way that artificial intelligence is shaping, not only technology, but business and the economy. So I understand you became aware of opportunities, working and touching on artificial intelligence at Google. Can you tell me more about that discovery? And how you built that?

MJ: 27:24

Absolutely. So my first exposure to artificial intelligence was actually in 2017, when I was part of the team that took Google, Google and DeepMind. To China, and we hosted international Well, an international event, they're featuring deep minds, ability AI, artificial intelligence, and and we hosted a go championship with the world's number one, Go player Codea, and was an incredible experience, it was the first time that I was really exposed to the power of artificial intelligence and deep neural networks. And it was an exciting, it was exciting place to be because so much of artificial intelligence at the time was way over my head. But just to be there to to physicists facilitate the event and help journalists and international media also come to understand, you know, how does the artificial intelligence beat the world's leading Go champion at this very complicated game, it just, it kind of showed the vast power that this technology has, and it also showed me the humanity behind it. So you know, while the world was watching AI, this play the game of Go, I was also seeing the humans behind the company, working on, on, on, on, on making sure that the technology is developed in a way that that is, is principled. The way we talked about it, the way the way, the way everything was carried out was so inspiring. So in my mind at the time, in 2017, I was like, Whoa, AI is the future. But I'm not a software engineer. And I'm, you know, I'm not a researcher. And I'm very far away from the from, from the from the academic discipline, and then the expertise required to work in this field. I, I would love to work in AI somehow, but I just can't see that happening, you know, I'd have to go back to school. And so that was kind of a dream that I tucked in into the back of my my mind. And when I went back to New York, I started working on some programs before COVID to help to help doctoral students, especially access the network of researchers that we have at Google in New York City in the tri state area. And one of the topics that I wanted to expose more students to was artificial intelligence. And, you know, again, it came back like that the opportunity to bring that in. And then all of a sudden, COVID happens. And, and I'm, you know, in quarantine lockdown by myself in an apartment in Chelsea two blocks away from my office and life changes. And I, I, I have to reconsider everything. Right, what really does matter to me? And, and, and, and and where do I go from here. So it was actually, during the early summer, late spring, early summer of 2020, that I saw an internal opportunity to be a content strategist for a team working on Google's artificial intelligence principles. And that really spoke to the former government official in me, somebody who's so passionate about public policy and what's right for society, I, I explored that opportunity and interviewed and was offered a temporary rotational assignment to this team for six months. And I took on that opportunity, and I just kept going with it. And that's the team that I'm with today. You know, I'm so grateful to be part of a team that works on the AI principles and responsible innovation.

Neil Metzler: 31:33

MJ, that sounds like a really natural progression. I like how you found opportunities in your current role to touch on topic areas, and subject areas that led to discovery sparked your curiosity. And I want our listeners to hear if you used other levers, like mentors, or internal training programs, as you ramped up in the AI space.

MJ: 32:00

Yeah, I mean, I would say that I certainly benefited from and continue to benefit from working with incredible group of people, just everybody who's willing to be helpful, is everybody is naturally wanting to collaborate. And so I'm so grateful for that. And that's just not limited to the AI space, but that's across the, the, the organization and the company. So, you know, that that was really, really helpful. And I will say, for, from a professional development perspective, what really helped was working with the coach to consider how I wanted to, to move forward, what, how I wanted to challenge myself, and, and grow in my career. So I was very fortunate to work with a coach. And actually, after the temporary assignment ended, I was able to get an extension, and then the team offered me a full time position. And then I just really tried my best Neal to work really hard. And part of my role is is helping explain and show the work that my coworkers, my colleagues and people the company are doing, and making sure that it's explainable. Understandable. And so within the first six months of formally being on the job, I was promoted, and this was like, great affirmation of, of, of, of okay, like, Hey, I'm actually I'm where I can be need to be and I'm, my work is, is having a positive impact.

Neil Metzler: 33:37

So you have now added the entrepreneurship hat, and found that channel of curiosity and discovery and ownership and yeah, I, I want to hear how that started, like on the side and then kind of ramped up because you've shared with me that this is now glow at global scale. You're selling in multiple regions and geographies. You have multiple product lines of these premium loose leaf teas. So how how did that spark turn into this? This big flame

MJ: 34:18

so much? There's so much sadness from the this the past few years with the Coronavirus, the pandemic and quarantine meal so, you know, there's there's a lot of sadness but there's also a huge silver lining which is that it forced the world globally to reevaluate all of us we've had the opportunity to reevaluate what really matters to us and to find enjoyment in the mundane. Many of us are just stuck between four walls for a very long time. And we had to find ways under had to find ways dialing in. Dressing up on top and wearing you know pajamas and slippers on the bottom like It's, you know, we, we, we are so humbled by this pandemic. And I am so grateful that it, it gave me the space to play, because I couldn't go out to like a museum or go out to dinner. You know, take another weekend getaway trip, because we are all in lockdown. And so I had to, you know, I was missing and craving travel, I wanted to travel the world. And in 2019, I was doing in my free time, on weekends, I was my goal is to leave the country at least once once a month. So I was traveling to like Norway and Portugal, I went to get my scoop, scuba diving license certification and in the Dominican Republic. So it was as kind of like traveling, kept going. And then all of a sudden, I was, yeah, I was just stopped. And so I remember sitting in my apartment, and I remember, I remember making my umpteenth cup of tea. And I was so bored of all the tea flavors that I had ordered, and I had stashed in my house. And I was like, you know, there's a flavor out there that I really want to taste and tea, but I just can't find it online. And I haven't come across it before. And I started to think about all the tea flavors that I'd love to taste. And I really I started searching and I couldn't find anything that was like it. And I was like, You know what, I think I think I should make some tea. And at first I thought, okay, you know, maybe I could get some ingredients from a whole food store and put it together and make my first batch. But then I started to think about it as like, no, I really want to make a quality product. And I want to do it at scale. If I'm making tea, I might as well make the best tea that I can ever make, and have it available to other people. And that is how I started the silk tea company is silk Chico. I founded it in April 2020 registered my business and New York and started iterating from there. And it has been you know a side hustle passion project. Because it was really about experimenting to with flavors and playing. That's what that's that's where this business came from was from playing and just wanting to to create novelty and bring joy in a bleak time. And since then, because technology today I am able to operate a digital storefront. So I have a website I my direct to consumer business. And I have been able to store my products at a at a warehouse that ships out my products to my customers and I get to focus on thinking about the flavors that of teas that I'm making the quality of tea sourcing and blending and you know, the creative direction of of the brand. And that's been a lot of fun.

Neil Metzler: 38:12

So MJ as we as we come to the conclusion here, you shared so many transitions and challenges and successes with us. I wanted to focus in on your this one that we've just spoken about with the silk tea company. And I wonder if there's one lesson you've learned about yourself since you've become an entrepreneur. And since you've become an entrepreneur, as you mentioned through this very challenging time in this global health crisis. Is there is there something that you'd like to leave our audience with about what it's meant to you? You know, to add to your identity, the fact that you are a business owner of a global business and an entrepreneur?

MJ: 38:57

Absolutely. I thank you again, Neil, for having me here. I think the freedom to create an autonomy is something that for a lot of times in our working careers, we look for time we were like, Okay, I don't have time to do that. Or I haven't, you know, I'm too busy for this. But all of the opportunities that you afford yourself to create or to make something new, they come from within. So you give yourself that opportunity. So I learned that I I could give myself the opportunity if I just made the decision to say, Okay, I'm going to try this. And that was something that should show like I didn't have to look somewhere online to you know, have this opportunity. I just decided, okay, I'm just going to try to figure it out. And I have the gumption so I'll just keep going until I do and I think that that's not unique to me. That's it Everybody out there as if you're playing with something, if something's keeping you up at night that you long for something that you've always wanted to do or have, give it a start small, you know, give it a few hours and then see where that momentum takes you. And it'll build. And, and you can go from there.

Neil Metzler: 40:18

Mary Jo, you have been a very wonderful guest, thank you so much for the time that you've spent sitting down with me, and for the lessons that you've brought, and the personal stories that you've shared here on your next big thing.

MJ: 40:33

Thank you, Neil. It's been such an honor to chat with you.

Neil Metzler: 40:35

So where can folks discover more about the silk T CO, and get their hands on some really good product?

MJ: 40:43

Oh, absolutely. Our website is www dot the silk t.co. And we're also on Instagram, at the silk T Co. And we are small, but growing and I just am always honored by different community members that reach out and exchange ideas about flavors and what they longed for. That whether or not you're a tea drinker. If I could ever be of assistance to anybody listening to this podcast. Everybody can can definitely feel free to reach out to me whether it's for tea or career or just a chat. Happy, happy to talk to always engage.

Neil Metzler: 41:22

Mary Jo, thank you so much, and have a great rest of your day.

MJ: 41:26

Thank you, Neil.

Neil Metzler: 41:27

You've listened to your next big thing. If you like what you've heard, please drop a like and subscribe. And you can always keep in touch with us at Cloud champions dotnet