Neil Metzler: 0:04

You're listening to your next big thing. My name is Neil Metzler and I'm a Career Coach and startup mentor in tech. In this series of podcasts, you will hear inspiring stories of career reinventions stories of folks who made a change, to find fulfilment from work and satisfaction from life. Even in this time of disruption. I hope you can take some perspective, insight and learn how to do what you love and love what you do. Welcome to our season one finale. My guest today is David Dennis. David is the son of a successful software entrepreneur. He originally went in a totally different direction than his Dad. David studied sociology and political science, and his first job was as a teacher in public schools. During the.com heyday of the early 2000s, David found himself experimenting with web development. In his free time, he started building websites for schools, and soon David co founded a tech startup. These experiences led David to a 20 year tenure at Microsoft, where he is currently a principal product manager for Microsoft Outlook. That's not the end of David's story. In this episode, you'll see how David experimented with novel projects, marquee events, and well placed mentors to create more fulfillment and balance in his career. He's also co founder at Ventana surfboards and supplies, providing adventures from Santa Cruz and around the world with hollow framed reclaimed wooden surfboards, body surfing hand planes, eco surf apparel, and sustainable surf supplies. Anyone with an interest in bridging their passion with their day job or struggling to decide between one path or another will benefit from this episode. I hope you enjoy it. David Dennis, welcome to your next big thing. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to have you here. And you are our final guest for Season One. And I'm so delighted to have you, David. Because, you know, your story shows that it doesn't have to be, or we don't have to do one thing or another. And we're going to talk about that in a bit. You have a fascinating career where you have gone from first working in the public school system, to then joining Microsoft around 20 years ago. And you continue in that role to this day full time, while also doing so much more. So several years ago, you co founded Ventana surfboards in Santa Cruz, California. And you also act as a mentor and advisor to startups that you care about, like the humble sea Brewing Company and bucket. So on top of this, you know, you're very multifaceted. You do philanthropic photography, and you've done several exhibitions, and participate in your community, through your art and your advocacy work, which we're going to speak about as well. So, David, you've spoken with me in the brief about how your passions, your interests, and your day job all come together for you to achieve balance. And I think that's really valuable for our audience to hear. Thanks for having me now. Yeah. So you started as a school teacher? And what drew you to that profession? And what did you learn about yourself and what you've like by doing it?

David: 3:26

It's a good question. I wish I had some pithy answer that talked about my, you know, wanting to change the world for the better, although I think that was that was definitely part of it. At the time, I was very idle, idealistic. It also had to do with a girlfriend I grew up in, in Silicon Valley, my father was one of the first software entrepreneurs in the Silicon Valley, he started his first company in 1972. And I think some of it was rebelling against the family business, and wanting to do something totally different to you know, quote, unquote, change the world. And my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife of 26 years, was passionate about becoming a teacher. And I said, Well, that sounds fun. And so I wound up getting a teaching credential and taking that route for a while. What I learned is that I loved imparting wisdom and trying to find the best in other people. And that's carried through I think, to my you know, work at Microsoft and mentorship I've done with other other startups and other people and career advice I give kids and even adults, trying to figure out what people's strengths are, and helping them find those, whether that's a you know, a sixth grader, trying to figure out how you know, to get through an exam or, you know, an adult trying to figure out how to do the right thing in their next startup. Just trying to help people uncover what's best about them and bring it to the surface. I think I love doing that. And it's rewarding. And I think that's probably what I learned most about myself as a teacher.

Neil Metzler: 5:06

That's wonderful, that experience in public service and how that by giving to others, we also, you know, learn things about ourselves. Right? So, how Tell us how that led you to the opportunity at Microsoft? How did you begin considering careers outside of teaching and public schools? And how did you make that jump?

David: 5:30

Yeah, that's a good question. It's an interesting jump, it's I think it's, it's one that sort of on paper seems rare. You know, I worked in public schools, schools that had sort of heavy gang influence, they were pretty rough. And I really, really liked it. I taught in Costa Rica for a year, I taught middle school, I ran a federal bilingual program, in a high school, here in California. And honestly, I kind of gravitated back toward the family business, in software. And part of the reason for that was because when we had our kids, my wife stopped teaching, and we couldn't stay in California in Santa Cruz, where we live on a single teacher salary. And, you know, this is about the time when the internet was really taking off. And I taught myself how to do basic web development. And I started to develop websites on the side for schools and school districts and county offices of education. And realize that I enjoyed that, that I could actually make more money doing that. And so I quit teaching so that I can focus on that full time in order to make enough money to support the family. And, you know, try to keep going into schools teaching kids, you know, I try to get into the classrooms once or twice a year still to teach some topic or another, universities as well. And I think, for me, it was sort of an economic imperative. I wound up starting a company, you know, early in the internet days, with a couple of partners, we crashed and burned within about a year and a half. But that gave me enough experience to go to Microsoft, I actually joined part of Microsoft, that was originally my father's company. So I definitely had an in. And I've been trying to sort of prove myself for the last 21 years to show that I'm worthy. But it was an introduction that I had to somebody had to go through the interview process, obviously. But my dad's company was acquired, then acquired again, and that wound up part of Microsoft. And so I sort of had an in early on. But that that's how I made the jump.

Neil Metzler: 7:35

Yeah, I can definitely relate to your point about the economic realities. So as we've seen things, also for this current generation with student loan debt, in the past 10 years, when I came out of school, when I went into school, I had ambitions of joining the Foreign Service and working in the US State Department in an embassy abroad. And when I graduated, and I was actually saw my loan balances, I made different decisions and actually moved into business and international business, in order to pay start paying back those loans more seriously. So appreciate what you said there. Yeah, yeah, I

David: 8:09

mean, I do have a ton of privilege. I mean, I, you know, had a connection, obviously, you know, to at least get into the door for an interview at Microsoft. You know, I didn't have student loan debt, I've been able to make decisions that a lot of people aren't able to make, because of, you know, the privilege that I've had growing up and, and my background, you know, not to say that I don't work hard, but obviously, you know, I'm very cognizant of the fact that I started on a, you know, potentially, you know, on a on a higher platform that many have the opportunity to do, which is another reason why I like to work with people that maybe, you know, haven't had that same privilege to give them a little more opportunity.

Neil Metzler: 8:47

That's true. And I do give you I do want to give you credit, because that startup experience, which I see you spent two years with Marathi and Santa Cruz. So I mean, 1999 to 2001 is a really interesting time to be in dot coms. And so you definitely, I mean, put time in there as president Emirati, so want to give you credit for that. So, David, we're going in the next chapters to talk about some of the changes you made, you know, how you made them and what you've learned about yourself. But I wanted to start with just that vignette. That speech that you've given that I think ties a lot of what you're all about, together for me when I heard about when you speak with groups of schoolchildren, and ask them about what they want to be when they grow up. So could you share that with our audience?

David: 9:33

Yeah, it started with a presentation I did to a girl School in San Francisco, and I was trying to figure out, you know what to say? And I started thinking about my own career. And you know, what's worked for me at least and it's the idea that we talk ask kids when they're really young, what do you want to be when you and I still find myself falling into this with my own kids, but what do you want to be when you grew up? What are you gonna be when you grow up? What do you want to do? You know, kind of what's the one thing and I think we set people up potentially for failure where they think that they're meant to do marine biology or journalism or whatever. Those are two things I wanted to do when I was a kid. And then when you somehow don't achieve that you feel like a failure. In my point, it has been that it's the right question isn't what do you want to be when you grow up? It's what are all the things you want to be? What are all the passions that you have that you can hopefully merge together in some way to be fulfilled, without having to take a single path. And you may change, like, I went from public school teaching to technology, and I've layered on other things that I'm passionate about. And so I don't think of myself as doing one thing, I have a variety of different things I do. And I think that helps provide balance and meaning to people's lives. And, you know, there's no shame in changing careers and doing more than just your day job. I have a TEDx talk that I call, don't quit your day job. So cold every time I think about leaving my day job to go do something different. I go watch my own TED Talk.

Neil Metzler: 11:06

One of the reasons I wanted to have you in our season finale, David is that this season, we've examined how to make big trade offs and kind of either or decisions. Sometimes it's about a side hustle that we're growing to full time, it might be about a career change in terms of industry, or it might be about, you know, changing location and going international things like that. So I'm really looking forward to examine how you've done and rather than or with some of your choices, so is that something that people push back on when you when you tell them that they can do this thing? And everything that are some of the other things they want? How do you explain that,

David: 11:46

I don't think people push back on it as much as they, they don't think they have time, or they don't think it's possible. You know, spend less time potentially on social media, although I would say I'm an addict. And, you know, there's, there's always time to do the things that you're passionate about, if you're really passionate about him. My guidance is usually to people, you know, don't get so passionate about the one thing that side hustle that you think is going to just be the big next thing for you and be able to support yourself financially, and jump in with both feet too soon. Right. When you think about, you know, the lean startup methodology, where you start with you start small you learn you determine whether the thing that you're working on, you know, is really viable before you go big with it, that that applies not just to startups and, and tech companies, and, you know, tech investments, it applies to your life as well. So if you think you want to be a professional photographer, don't just quit your day job and try to become a professional photographer overnight. Go and try and get clients, you know, work on your skills learn, really make sure that you can transition to making a living doing it before you quit the thing that stable. So I like to think about people transitioning as opposed to making abrupt changes. And that's generally so I think the answer is, people don't push back as much as I hear a lot. I'm just gonna quit my job and I'm gonna go be a full time x. And I think until you've proven to yourself that you really it's viable to be a full time x like I did on the side when I was doing web development and teaching at the same time. It's a really risky proposition. Unless you have massive massive you know, finance, you know, funding for yourself in the bank already. I think it's risky.

Neil Metzler: 13:38

Yeah, and even so when we try these new endeavors if they crash and burn it's it's it's that time invest in that emotional toll as well on the on the family and loved ones we bring along with us on that ride. I know, I just stepped out of from 10 years in corporate now to running my own practice as a coach and, you know, career progression practitioner, and it's, it's, it has ups and downs, but I was able to I read The Lean Startup, I was able to test and validate, I was able to listen and get sit with customers and understand what they needed. And then build a product off of that, you know, just kind of whittling away over a long period of 18 months, two years time and, um, that's how I made my I like what you said about transition rather than kind of abrupt change. So coming back to, you're now at Microsoft as a principal product and program manager. So we talked about some of those product development steps. I'd love to hear the story of Ventana surfboards if you can introduce how you got to know your co founder and why you got started on the journey with Ventana what it means to you and I know your conservation, values and background as well.

David: 14:49

Yes, I've been tonnison interested when I talk about, you know, all of my passions coming together. It's it's a really interesting example of that. So Microsoft has a really interesting giving program or One of the biggest, we have one of the largest, perhaps the largest employee giving program in the world. And we we donate$25 an hour for every hour that each of our employees volunteers. In the US, I think we've expanded that somewhat internationally as well. So if I go and do an hour of you know, work in a in a with a nonprofit, Microsoft gives that nonprofit$25. So if I do 10 hours $250 And they match 100% of what we donate up to, I believe it's now$15,000. So I can donate$15,000, up to to a nonprofit and Microsoft matches at 100%. And so I was trying to figure out a way to leverage that giving program to have more impact locally here in Santa Cruz. And so I'm passionate about education, ocean conservation, and homeless solving homelessness. And so I haven't done one in a while because of COVID. But I've done seven of these photo exhibits where I take I love taking portrait, pictures of people around the world. So I take pictures, I put on a big art exhibit. And I sell the photos. And then I donate 100% of the proceeds back to the nonprofit so the photo exhibit is thematically related to an individual nonprofit. And each of the projects raises somewhere between 10 and $20,000 for the nonprofit. One of the shows that I did was I spent four months photographing surfboard shapers just say shaping boards because I had gotten into surfing and I think surfboards are beautiful and the the artists and ship that goes into them is really interesting. And then put on a big photo exhibit raised a bunch of money for the Surfrider Foundation, Santa Cruz chapter which is a really neat ocean conservation group that's International. And one of the people who I photographed was my now business partner in Ventana and I realized photographing, I'd leave these shaping bays with just a gnarly headache and the smells were terrible and the materials are toxic. And you know, they're surfboard glasses that are getting cancer and it's a pretty terrible industry. So we talked about going into the ocean and surfing and how much we love the ocean and we want to protect it but then the materials that we're using and surfboards and apparel and other surf related products is really really bad for the environment. So I decided that it would be an interesting idea to start an environmentally responsible surf company. I created a vision over about a weekend then approached my now business partner who is making surfboards out of reclaimed wood probably the most environmentally responsible boards in the world and said hey, I got this idea I'd love to start a company you know you you're building surfboards you have this brand that you've started called Ventana, let's create a company together. And we did and so we've expanded into other products into apparel. And it stayed fairly small. But it started from a photo a philanthropic photo exhibit. That's how I met my partner. And so Microsoft's Giving Program led to me doing photo shows which led to Ventana and so they all kind of come together. I also work in monetization for consumer services, I work on the Outlook team for email. And so a lot of what I've been able to learn from Ventana as a small business, and using technology, social media, you know, online advertising, search advertising has been really relevant to understanding customer needs, and market opportunities and competition for Microsoft. So it all sort of fits together. So disparate, it sounds disparate photography, serve company, Microsoft, but they actually all fit together. And in fact, one led to the other.

Neil Metzler: 18:42

This is the balance that struck me when we spoke in the brief. And when I first looked over your lake, a person's LinkedIn profile is not the sum of who they are as a human being. Right. So you've told us how these things tie together. And I'm particularly struck how you brought your values into play with Conservancy. And would you like to maybe highlight one other photography, philanthropic photography, photography project you've done that was especially meaningful for you?

David: 19:13

Yeah, the surfboard one was really interesting, because it got me connected to the local surf community really quickly. I didn't start surfing until I was 40. I'm 53 now. So it was a way for me to start to get dialed into the local community here very, very quickly, which was cool. And that was a successful show. So I started to do more. One of the ones that I'm most proud of, I'm proud of all of them. They're they're some amazing organizations with some phenomenal people here locally. And so I've done you know, my little part to support them, but the one that I really love, and still donate time and money to is the homeless garden project. And it's a project that takes people who are homeless, they have a local farm, and they teach them about organic farming how to farm and they basically do job training. Food Preparation, other skills. And they have a very high job placement rate. So it's a way to provide, you know, meaningful training to people who are homeless, do it in a farm setting with organic farming, which organic farming is much better for the ocean, because there's no pesticide runoff. And so I did a photo exhibit for them, where I documented basically their entire organization in portraits. So the people that come in buy the produce the people that are being trained people who are homeless, the staff, I went into people's houses and photograph them preparing meals with the food that was taken from the farm. And then we put on this big portrait exhibit over the holidays, sold the pictures donated the money back to the homeless garden project. And Microsoft matched all that. And I think that project raised a little over $10,000.

Neil Metzler: 20:51

So you spoke about the the decision that you made, and how you've made several decisions to orient not just like work life balance, but you know, what your responsibilities, what your housing would look like. And that's created longevity for you in big tech. I mean, 20 years in big tech is a serious achievement. I completed 10 years, my wife is just hitting 10 years, I chose to step out after 10. And, you know, longevity is is a major challenge. So it might seem like a simple question. But how have these balance changes helped you achieve more longevity in your corporate career?

David: 21:31

I think it has in that the decisions I've made are to work on projects that I find meaningful, and try to position myself and build my skill set around things that are going to allow me to focus on what I care most about within the company, whether that means I'm managing people, whether I'm not managing people, if I'm working in Europe, if I'm working in California, if I'm working in Silicon Valley, it's always trying to find something that a I think I can succeed, I can learn. And I can do something that I really care about. And so I think that's been really helpful in guiding my decisions. And then I also tried to focus on things, even probably more outside of work that aligned with my values. So I talked about education, my wife, still a special ed teacher, I taught for years. ocean conservation, you know, I live in the ocean, and I'd love to serve in homelessness. It's a huge problem in California, especially here in Santa Cruz. And, you know, if I can help raise money to solve the problem with organizations like the homeless garden project, or there are a couple of others in that space that I've helped, then it's aligning with the things that I care about. So I would say it's a How can I? How can I do things that I'm passionate about, that I think I can succeed at, and that align with my values? That's sort of what guides my decisions. And those are all interconnected.

Neil Metzler: 22:56

And I'm curious now as as a father, and as a parent? What? What have you learned, as you've seen your kids grow up? And now make decisions about even even small things of what to study what to go after? Like, what does that been like for you, seeing them make those choices make their choices as well?

David: 23:18

It's great, it's super hard, right? Because you want to, you want to basically help them at every single step, and you want to do the connections for them, and you want to, you know, you want to sort of have them understand all the lessons you've learned intuitively. My wife is probably much better at it than I am. But you just got to let them find their path and fail and learn from their failures. You know, just like all of us had, my kids are doing well. I mean, they're there. I always go, Well, God, if they could just do this, or if they wound up, you know, my son just made this one little decision that was different than I would have made, then, you know, maybe he'd be better off, but they're finding their own way. And they they're doing well at it. And so it's it's rewarding to see even if they're taking very different paths than I did.

Neil Metzler: 24:03

Thank you, David. So David, we're going to talk now about your mentorship towards startups and startup founders. And there's two in particular that I wanted to speak about. So one is bucket, which is, you know, it's an app, it's a team. And another is humble sea Brewing Company, which is also a team but a very different enterprise then, you know, technology and apps in some senses. So which would you like to tell us about first?

David: 24:28

I think we can start with humbles you Brewing Company. That's a local craft brewer that's expanding extremely quickly opening new locations, they're just absolutely killing it in terms of growth, that how they were able to pivot during the pandemic. In growing this, this just amazingly rabid fan base around their beer. I don't drink. So it was interesting in that they were paying me in beer when we first started. And my wife likes to drink beer occasionally. So I was basically supplying beer for the house. I didn't drink. I like beer. Yeah, that's good. I actually have an amount of medication. And when I drink it just I don't feel great. So I stopped drinking about 10 or 12 years ago, but they're friends. And we actually met through Ventana. And we we've kind of started our businesses around the same time and they've they've taken off like a rocket ship. And we've stayed relatively small, but they sort of outgrew what I could help them with. So I worked with them for about a year and a half for a little bit of equity. And, you know, they're, they can now teach me all kinds of things. But I worked with primarily with the three founders in the management team to just get them started with some HR processes, how to coach employees, how to do one on ones, How to Set Key Performance Indicators, do monthly business reviews, help them get started Diversity, Equity and Inclusion group at the at the company. So it was sort of taking what I've learned over the years, from the corporate environment, and tech, and helping them apply it to their growth plans. And, you know, I'm very close friends with the founders, one of them in particular, it's one of my best friends. And that's grown in part due to our work together. But Humble see, is just watching them grow has just been incredibly satisfying. But it was interesting, because we applied some of my lessons from tech to some of the help that they needed in a beer company. And I think, you know, it's helped them.

Neil Metzler: 26:31

You've talked about how working together has also helped you grow closer as friends. But have there been Have there been challenges to you know, working with friends or working with family like that?

David: 26:45

Yeah, I think, I think when you're helping other people, you know, they'll give you a little bit of a pass when you know, things aren't perfect. But I know that the founders there have a coach that helps them work better together. And I think, you know, being transparent with each other, and improving your communication skills and being honest, where you need to be honest, and you know, when things aren't going so well. And having the tools to be able to do that helps maintain the friendships, these three guys that started humble sea Brewing Company, went to high school together grew up together. And I think it can create a lot of tension. And they've, they recognize that that could be a problem. And they brought in somebody who's been able to help them with their communication skills, and that's kept the friendships strong. That said, I think my wife, I always joke with my wife, oh, we should start this together. And we should do this together. And she's resisted it for 20 While we've been together 31 years, every time we bring it up, she laughs and says under no circumstances are we ever working together? Because I think you know, I think the two of us just would not be able to work together in a capacity like that because as she says I micromanage although I would debate that my dying breath boundaries. Yeah, the boundaries with with my wife is are required. But with friends, I mean, my partner, Martina and I are good friends and. And it's just been figuring out how to communicate to each other in the style that the other needs to needs to hear.

Neil Metzler: 28:16

So jumping for humble see back to Ventana for a moment. What's special about your relationship with Martin, your co founder,

David: 28:24

I think what's special is that we're complementary with very few overlapping skills. He the one skill that I think we both have together is He's a phenomenal public speaker. I'm a good public speaker, actually, he doesn't like to be out in front. But he's actually I think better at it than I am. And that's one of the things I consider as a skill. But otherwise, he's the artisan, he's an unbelievable builder craftsman. He is incredibly detail oriented. He's very patient, he can build things, you know, the surfboards that he builds are among the the highest quality and the most beautiful, I think in the world. And they're all made with trash. I mean, he's literally turning reclaimed materials reclaimed wood into these unbelievable art pieces. So he's got a skill there that I I'm not even allowed to touch the tools because I mean, the second I touch anything, my fingers are gonna get cut off. He, I think he could learn what I do, but he doesn't have any interest in it. So all of the PR work, all of the marketing, all of the sales, all the customers interaction, you know, to close business, that's what I love, the marketing side, the brand building and you know, all the social media interaction. And so we're we're very respectful of each other's skills. And we both bring, you know, an equal amount of value to the table and that's been really, really helpful in terms of us working together. So, my advice is always find people who are, you know, that have skill set that are complementary to what you do but different, like when you're starting a company, if all three founders are, you know, software engineers, it might not work. You know, if somebody's a solid software engineer, you probably need someone else that can, you know, help raise funding and somebody else who's really good at marketing and, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to find, you know, deep expertise in all of the areas required to start a company. And finding founders that are complementary in their skill sets is critical.

Neil Metzler: 30:34

As you're telling me this, David, I'm on Ventana surfboards.com, where people can see not only the finished product, but also I see more time here working with some tools and some protective equipment. And it's just remarkable, to see how you've talked about creating synergies and your founding team, learning to learning to trust learning to understand, you know, strengths, and you know, believing each other and supporting each other, which it sounds like you guys have done for the past. How many years now with Ventana? Over eight years? Yeah, yeah, that's a really fantastic co founder story. So thank you for sharing that, that co founder decision, which is so crucial, and the fact that you guys have been together with him for eight years is just testament to that. So really cool.

David: 31:19

And he actually had a co founder, who was also a woodworker, who was had skills that were lower than his, and it didn't work out. And so he realized once when I came to him that having somebody who can, who has had a different skill set was actually really valuable. To the partner, the original partnership fell apart because they were, they were similar, and one was better than the other.

Neil Metzler: 31:40

So David, we've spoken about humble seed brewing. And you've also mentored a startup called bucket, who helps people create, share and realize the experiences that they have on their bucket list in a totally unique way. How did you get involved in Why did you get involved?

David: 31:55

Yeah, buckets. It's a neat app. It's some founders from San Diego State University where I went to school, the the CEO and co founder of the company, a kid named I guess he's, I shouldn't say should I say kid, I think he's in his early 20s. But Trent one, he went to San Diego State with the other founders and also is from Santa Cruz is friends with my son and my daughter, and he had reached out to see if, you know, I might be able to do my tech background. And if I might be able to help them with some of their early challenges. And so it's been really fun mentoring them, similar to what I did with humble see, actually helping them understand what the most important performance indicators are for the business and, you know, giving them some guidance on how to approach user testing and, and in some career coaching as well. So giving them some guidance on you know, how how they can complement each other skill sets, and, you know, they're they're, they're still growing and they're still small, you know, as a as a company. And so the guys are, you know, getting jobs on their own as well. And so giving them some guidance on that, while they're building bucket on the side as a, as a as an opportunity for them to grow their skills as well has been really fun.

Neil Metzler: 33:12

I've seen their Y Combinator application video, and it looks like a lot of fun. And they have recently pushed a highlight reel to YouTube, I think so yeah, we'll definitely link bucket humble sea brewing and Ventana in the show notes for our listeners to check out. Thanks so much for that. If you know me, you know, I'm concerned about gender gap in tech. Women in big data are a nonprofit building the data science and engineering workforce of our future, because there cannot be equity in society, without equity in data collection, curation and decisions, learn about the new data revolution, and how you can be a part of the solution at women in big data.org. So David, I know growing up, watching my dad, his career was not very linear. And he actually suffered from that. It seemed that he's to me that he suffered more setbacks, more challenges. And ultimately, he had a hard time realizing his potential in any one field because he was a career changer. But this season, we've actually seen from many people or maybe, also generationally that it is becoming more and more true or more and more accepted that careers are no longer linear. How do you see that question?

David: 34:30

It's interesting, I guess, they always feel linear to me, right? Because it's first this happens, then this happens in the time feels linear. So they always feel linear to me, but that they, in a traditional sense of I start here, and then I get promoted, and then I move into this role, and then I grow my skills in this area, and I work on this next thing that's very similar to the last thing that I did and that that sort of linear I think is over for and I think that's good. I You know, I've been at Microsoft for 21 years, and it feels like, you know, that's just this, I can see how someone might say, well, you know, you're you actually are linear, you've started Microsoft, and you've done this thing where you've just, you know, moved up the ranks. And I haven't, like I worked, like we talked about earlier, you know, I manage teams, and I worked in enterprise software. And then I worked in consumer software. And then I decided to become an individual contributor and work out of my house at the beach. And it's been a lot of ups and downs, and over here and over there, and different leaders in different divisions. And so I've jumped around a lot there. And at the same time, in my career, I went from public education into online startup and then into Microsoft, and then doing the photography on the side and then Ventana, the surfboards and supplies as a as another business. And so you know, I've done a lot of moving around moving around into different houses. And like we talked about in the beginning, this whole idea that I'm going to, what am I going to be when I grew up, and all the steps that I needed to do to get to that, and then grow in that career and stay in that same career. You know, it doesn't have to be like that. And I think most people want to be able to do different things in their life. You know, even if that means taking a couple years as gap, and traveling and you know, working as a bartender in Australia, or whatever, all of those things become skills that you can use in the future, as you as you decide, you know, where you want to go next. And next. And next. And it doesn't have to be traditionally linear. I mean, I was a school teacher and in Costa Rica for a year and, you know, built up my Spanish and my Spanish helped me get a job in teaching and, you know, all of the things connect to each other. But this idea that, you know, you've got to have a traditional linear career, I think is can be painful for people. Now, my dad, on the other hand, his was relatively linear. I mean, he worked as a, as an engineer for General Electric, on the NASA's first space shots as a contractor for NASA, and then moved around a little bit in General Electric, but then came to the Silicon Valley with GE and realized that software was becoming a thing and started his first software company and grew that grew two software companies sold them both and retired at 54. So his is, I don't know if he would say it like this, but it feels more linear to me, and it worked out for him. So I just don't I don't think you see a lot of that anymore. I think it's good.

Neil Metzler: 37:28

I wonder if you can take us to one example of a difficult decision or maybe like a fork in the road, and how you saw those options. And you know, how what your process was for arriving at your decision, whether it was from Microsoft, you had been successful as a manager, you're stepping then into icy and supercharging icy rules? Or maybe it was something else? What could you share as advice with our listeners,

David: 37:56

because there's lots of forks that I've had. The one specifically about Microsoft, was that I wanted to go work in AD monetization. And there's a long story as to why I wanted to do that, which is sort of interesting in its own right, but and so I was moving into a role that was going to be a lateral move, but I was going to be managing a team. And the week before I was going to take that role or start working in that job. There was a reorg. And the role that I had accepted became an individual contributor role and was no longer a manager role. And I thought that my ego was tied up in managing people at Microsoft, and that that was a, you know, that was a big deal. And that was, you know, what I needed to do to continue to stay employed and move up. And within a week, I said, I'll jump in, I'll try it. I'll be NIC and see what happens. And within a week, I realized that I probably would never go back to managing people again. And it was because I actually had blocks in my day. Like today, I've got, you know, open hours in my schedule, where I'm not doing one on ones with employees and dealing with HR issues. And, you know, meeting with other managers to talk about relative performance of employees, I actually have time in my day to think time in my day to go deeper on projects, more balanced in my life, because I don't have responsibility directly for a lot of other people. And so it was a tough decision. And then after a week, I realized that it was not only the right decision, but it was probably a decision that I would do, I would stay focused on being an Icee for the rest of my career, which I never would have expected. So sometimes it's you know, if it's the thing that you feel like you're passionate about working on, even if not all the other pieces that you think should go along with it or there, give it a shot. Especially right now there's so many career opportunities given the state of the way the the economy is working and the great resignation that there's all kinds of places where you can wind up and I think there's less risk in making moves like that, than there used to be. At least for now.

Neil Metzler: 39:56

I'd like to ask you, David about an example of a project that You took on, because in my coaching practice, I've developed this methodology with these five different pillars, which are like five buckets for people to kind of invest their time and effort in. And they're things like going to the right events, you know, internally and externally, using well placed mentors and cultivating them developing them. And one of the most critical pillars is the relevant project. So I encourage people to design, find or create a relevant project in their current nine to five, that helps them use the skills and create results that will be relevant for whatever their next big step is. So in your experience, have you had a project that was really stretchy for you, that you were, you know, unsure of, but forced you to use new skills, or build new relationships that looking back really have paid off for you?

David: 40:51

I love that advice that you give, because I give the same advice. When people say, you know, how do I get experience doing this, or I want to go get this job so I can get this experience. My advice is within a company or even you know, in your own personal life, go do the thing. Like, if you can't get a job doing software development, then go build up your software development skills by actually building something, the guys that did bucket, you know, instead of trying to get a job to figure out how to do you know, build an app and start to build a, you know, a social network kind of a solution, they just went and built it. And that experience, they can then parlay into other career opportunities in the future. So go go do the thing, or figure out how you can go do the thing in your current role. Or even do it as an above and beyond project in your current role, which you know, the your management, your company, your people will love. And you've just built up the skill to do something you know, that that you're passionate about. And that's going to help you take the next step. So go do the thing, don't just ask if you can do the thing. I was working on something that I've been working on for a very long time, and I was bored with it. The part of the team I was managing was working on this thing. And there was somebody else that was working on the ad monetization work for Outlook. And there was some challenges with it. And we basically horse traded. So I gave him the thing that I was not interested in working on anymore, he gave me the thing that he was not interested in working on anymore. And I thought, Okay, I'll take this is an opportunity to try and try something new stretch, learn something new. And I got so passionate about it that I basically dedicated and have dedicated multiple years of my career to it. And help turn around a business from into a profitable one. Because I was so excited about being able to measure the business outcome, but that one came from literally jumping into a new project that someone didn't want. And I traded it for something I didn't want. And it worked out great.

Neil Metzler: 42:54

And David, did you use deep? Were you able to capture those results, leverage those results to create, you know, credibility and reasons to believe for you to go deeper in that field or your next interview?

David: 43:07

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, some of my success in that in that monetization work enabled me to move back into the engineering team that I'm on right now as a program manager, or what we now call product managers at Microsoft. And the team that I'm on now is pulled a lot of strings to get me to come back over, because they knew that I had been successful in helping them turn the business profitable. So my results were directly directly led to me being able to make my next career move, because I had proven myself in that space by simply just taking on a project.

Neil Metzler: 43:48

That's fantastic. David, thank you so much for being my episode six guests and concluding season one on your next big thing.

David: 43:56

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation. Yeah.

Neil Metzler: 43:59

So David, we spoke about Ventana surfboards and where can people learn more about Ventana,

David: 44:06

Ventana surfboards.com, or Ventana dot surf in every single social media platform, YouTube, Reddit, and probably a whole bunch of other apps and platforms you've never even heard of. We're just typing Ventana surfboards into into Bing, Microsoft or if you have to into Google, and you'll find us.

Neil Metzler: 44:27

Well, David, I've been really inspired by the way you've shared your balance, and I really hope it's valuable for our community as well. So David, on behalf of myself, our production team and our listeners, dividends. Thank you very much,

David: 44:41

Neil. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

Neil Metzler: 44:43

You've listened to your next big thing. If you've liked what you've heard, please drop a like and subscribe. And you can always keep in touch with us at Cloud champions.net