Neil Metzler: 0:03

You're listening to your next big thing. My name is Neil Metzler and I'm a Career Coach and startup mentor in tech. In this series of podcasts, you will hear inspiring stories of career reinventions stories of folks who made a change, to find fulfilment from work and satisfaction from life. Even in this time of disruption. I hope you can take some perspective, insight and learn how to do what you love and love what you do. Welcome to episode one of your next big thing. My guest today is Nassima Filali. Nassima. Welcome to your next big thing.

Nassima: 0:41

Hi, Neil, thank you for having me.

Neil Metzler: 0:42

Thanks so much for making the time. So we are sitting here today in Berlin. And we're going to be having a cup of tea together and talking a little bit about your career journey, what you've learned about yourself, founding your own startup in Paris, to working for some very exciting startups, and then moving into it sales. And finally deeper and deeper into tech, where you find yourself today in the very exciting field of augmented reality, virtual reality and extended reality.

Nassima: 1:10

My answer might be surprising. But to be honest, when I, you know, started to build my professional career, let's say, I wasn't really you know, focusing in a specific position. For me, it was more important to work for company that was that were, you know, selling innovative solution, because this is what I was the most interested in working for a company that were focusing on changing, you know, a certain, a certain area of the business. So that was my main focus, and not necessarily having in mind a specific position. And I started, you know, working for a lot of startups. And as you know, when you work in startups, you have the opportunity to really embrace and do different, you know, different jobs. And it's just little by little that I came to the conclusion that working within, you know, the sales area was something more in fit with my personality, because it gave me the opportunity to really discuss with a lot of different clients understand their, you know, their space, their ecosystem, how they work, their challenges, there's this whole kind of consulting part within the sales job that I'm the most interested in. So I think, yeah, this is what drove me the most to, you know, be a little bit more aware of, you know, what I wanted to do so working for tech companies and working as a salesperson, because once again, getting to know different, different, you know, different companies, different clients, understanding, you know, their needs, their challenges, and so on. It just very exciting because you can be promoting always the same solution. But at the same time, you always do something different due to the nature of the clients you have in front of you, I guess this is this is what I the most about being a salesperson.

Neil Metzler: 3:02

It sounds you've started to pick up on some signals. Yeah, you were thinking about things a little bit differently, as many of us Yeah. And as the world has. Exactly, yeah. And how did those signals begin to take shape into a new decision?

Nassima: 3:17

Um, yeah, I think that, that at some point, I just, I just, I just didn't feel as excited as I was before. You know, when it came to, you know, my daily tasks, and just kind of those kind of things. I mean, I think every, every one knows what I'm talking about, you know, when you are in, in a position working somewhere, and then suddenly, it's become more and more difficult to, you know, to just do your, you know, your basic tasks, you know, and it's not because it's getting, more complicated, just because you're not as excited as at the beginning, which is, I mean, which is also normal after working for several years in the same place. But then, you know, it's a matter, it's a matter of choice. And for me, once again, it was it's all about excitement, I really, need to feel, you know, excited, I don't really mind the amount of work. for me, what is really important is to have the feeling that I'm learning something new every single day. And that I'm working for something that's yeah, have a kind of huge impact or being impacts you know, with my clients and so on. So So yeah, I mean, that, that was that was the signs which led me to basically start reconsidering things or trying to change my Yeah, just to change you know, my my company, and the company. I was working for me and this is where it this is when I met you and We started to actually work together in this in this new pass.

Neil Metzler: 5:06

Yeah, I remember you reached out and yeah, friend put us in touch. Yeah. And we had a pretty open free flowing conversation about what were you looking for? Yeah. And what was important to you. And I remember coming out of that conversation excited, because I felt that I could definitely relate to some of the thoughts and the signals you were observing. And I had built a bridge for myself. And I've been really inspired by the path that you've carved and the lane that you've created for yourself to move into enterprise AR VR XR. So yeah, I am really happy about that. So I know that you took the decision to reach out and seek mentorship and to see coaching from from myself, what other steps did you take to do maybe start reading articles or or talk to friends in the industry? What were some of the rational steps that you took, or maybe even some, reflection and more emotional process that you went through before you went and applied?

Nassima: 6:05

Yeah, I think that's once my decision was made. It was pretty straightforward for me, basically. Yeah, I mentioned all the all the all the different signals and so on. And then at some point, I was Yeah, I need to do something. And obviously, when you reach this point of, I need to do something the next question is okay, but who wants and, and yeah, it can, it can be a little bit overwhelming, obviously. Because, you know, you have this term's dream companies, for instance, you know, you really want to work for them, and you're not you, you need to go through, you know, the back again, you know, the process of sending resumes and, you know, having, interviews and all those kind of things, while still on top, you know, working and doing your regular job. So, you know, also things kind of adds up. So, it's, it's, it can be very, very challenging, because you need to have, a certain discipline, you need to even after, you know, a long work day, you need to spend more time again, to send resume and reach out to companies and do the interviews, and, you know, handle also rejection, which is obviously not, not very, not very easy, you know, especially when you have another job and, and you're, prove why why am I doing that? why am I doing that myself, but then you need to remember, you know, to keep in mind, why you are doing that for yourself, you know, it's obviously it's not easy, but it's to achieve something that's, you know, that is big, that is huge, you know, just to go through a next step in your career and do something that you're very passionate about, and would make you overall very happy. And so, I mean, I was reading about the AR VR, but this is something that I was doing, even when I wasn't working in the AR VR industry anymore, because once again, I'm generally very interested in this topic, you know. But for me, it was very important to, yeah, to have someone you, mentor friend of a teacher, yeah, who could, you know, just help me? Yeah, who could just be by my side and help me each step of the way. So for instance, we work together on it on preparing, you know, all the different interviews, and we also work together on you know, putting some, you know, some notes so I could be ready once I start, you know, working for them was the main competitors and also is kind of very, very interesting information for me, that helped me have more confidence, but overall, what was very important for me was to have the support, you know, what I mean? have someone who I can just reach out to an Ask advices and, and knowing that this person, even if I don't learn this job will still you know, be by my side and help me you know, unlock perhaps other opportunities and so on. And this is something very, very important and very good because I mean, we are all very different but um, I don't know for me it's quite difficult to discuss those kind of topics with friends or family because then there is a lot of emotion you know, involved I don't know for instance, my parents are coming from you know, from Africa it's a competition different generation so for them, you know, seeing me all the time, moving from a company to another from a country to another it's really difficult for them to you know, I'm Understand, because there are part of this generation that, you know, have had the same job for 50 years, you know what I mean? So it's very different. And once again, we are all we're all completely unique, and how we, you know, see these things? And yeah, for me, it was just very, very difficult to then having a conversation around that, because I knew that they would project their, you know, fear and insecurities, you know, to Well, me, which I can understand, absolutely, but this is not what I needed at the moment. And I mean, some for, you know, from friends, I have a lot of friends that unfortunately, you know, lost their jobs during the COVID. So being me arriving, being yeah, I have this job, but I not 100% fulfilled, I want to do something else. When you have someone who literally, love that. I mean, you cannot do that, you know what I mean? It's not possible. So that's why it was very important for me to have Yeah, someone you, or, or that would be one of my advice, you know, having, you know, yeah, separate person, someone, someone who can be very, you know, objective, there is no feelings whatsoever, involved in this. It's, it's, it's very, yeah, talking about facts and how, you know, how you can help and, and you can be 100% transparent and say, okay, so this is this is my insecurities. This is. Yeah, this is what I'm not sure about, how, how can we do to, you know, builds, builds this. Just confidence.

Neil Metzler: 11:37

Thank you. Nassima for this sharing and reflection on that, because I've been a, you know, supporter, and I've been cheering for you. And I remember our process. I remember when I when you shared the results with me. And I've been so excited to sit down with you here to hear more about it, and to hopefully share it with a wider audience that can also be inspired about overcoming their own challenges. Yeah, thank you.

Nassima: 12:02

You're welcome. My pleasure.

Neil Metzler: 12:06

Alright, so you've made it now to your next big thing. You've told us a little bit about how you made this happen. I know that there was one person who was instrumental in in the recruitment process with you. And without going into too much detail. How can you? How did you prepare for those key conversations? Those key informational and, and formal interviews? And how did you how did you create trust with your new company in that process?

Nassima: 12:40

Yeah, so I mean, as you know, we had a lot of, we had a lot of interview preparation session. That's, it's, yeah, that's what have we, that we had together. So that's, that was very important for me, in the, in the process, basically, as No, I didn't have I didn't put the same energy in all my, you know, my, my, my different, you know, interviews or job offers, because, yeah, because I wasn't as excited that with this particular company, so that's why I really wanted to have something, you know, very, very well prepared. And that's why I wanted to have your support, especially, you know, for this position, because this is the one that I really wanted to look to, to learn, you know, and I think that it was also a very important lesson for me, because previously, when I was looking for jobs, I would, you know, go for, let's say, the, the quantity. And now, you know, reflecting a little bit about, you know, my process, I think that it's better to perhaps at least in my case, you know, to focus on 123 companies, I'd say that you really want to target do your research, try to you know, have a creative way to apply. So, you know, sending something very, very tailor made to this, you know, particular position, trying to find, you know, the hiring manager via IVR linkage and all those kinds of things takes a lot a lot of time. And obviously, you cannot do that, you know, for if you are reaching or sending application to, you know, 20 or 30 companies. So, yeah, for me, that's why it was very important to kind of focus on this one because this is the one that I really wanted to learn and then having a kind of preparation with with you. So we did a lot of work around. Yeah, just prepping for those interviews. So what I said before, we did a lot of work around you know, going through the different specification, what was asking by the company, trying to see if there would be some, you know, technical certification or you know, webinars or whatsoever that You know, I could I could take or listen to or read or watch whatsoever. So I can be very, you know, ready, let's say. So yeah, this is this is what we have been doing.

Neil Metzler: 15:15

If you know me, you know, I'm concerned about gender gap in tech. Women in big data are a nonprofit building the data science and engineering workforce of our future, because there cannot be equity in society without equity in data collection, curation and decisions, learn about the new data revolution, and how you can be a part of the solution at women in big data.org. Welcome back, so So there were two points that I wanted to highlight for the audience. One is the way that you use your first stage interviews and the informational interviews to really gain new information and more business context. And second, we can go into in a minute, but tell me a little bit about your thinking and how you approached those interviews? And how you manage those critical stakeholders.

Nassima: 16:05

Yeah, so I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn to really, you know, I do some research about the hiring manager, but also, you know, the different people within the company who could be you know, key stakeholders, within, you know, the whole, you know, hiring process. So, yeah, I mean, we, we started our, let's say, relationship on LinkedIn. And yeah, very, very fast. We had some kind of, you know, yeah, we just hit it off. It was it was very, very, very natural. I was, I was really asking her each step of the, you know, of the process would be my main interlocutor, yeah, trying to ask a lot of questions around the business as well. And trying to be Yeah, of course, as as prepared as possible for, you know, each step of the process, let's say,

Neil Metzler: 17:02

so it sounds You led your genuine curiosity shine. Yes. Example. And you also just were You were your professional and full and authentic self? Yes, this opportunity, right. Yeah. Yeah. Because I spoke with you after the first interview, and you were just, you were beaming, you were glowing? you were full of new information about the context and the challenges and the stakeholders and what to expect next? Yeah. Yeah, I think people can draw a lesson from that, about how to get more information that did, did that help you then with the next steps? And the next stage?

Nassima: 17:36

Yeah, so preparing is very, very important. Because first of all, it gives you you know, the confidence that you need for you know, your interviews, because, yeah, because you have been preparing the thing you've been to the, to the website, you have been downloaded, you know, all this white paper, and so on. So, so yeah, it's already, give you the confidence and give you the opportunity to have, you know, a conversation with the counterpart at a more, you know, equal level, if you if you know, what I mean, because you already have, kind of the lingo you understand, the challenges you understand, what's the company wants to do. So, it's very important to have, all this kind of background to, you know, kind of be out of this, you know, simple interview process, but it's, but more being into, you know, two people having a conversation about, you know, something that was interested in, and it completely switch, you know, the, the angle. So I think this is, this is very important. Also, for me, it was extremely important to be 100% myself, and you remember, this is something that we discussed as well. Because, yeah, it's a tech company. And obviously, it's the hiring process. So, usually, I could have been a little bit more, you know, more quiet and so on. But for me, since I'm taking, a huge risk, you know, to leave, you know, a position already secure and go it was very important, for me to be 100% myself, and to make sure that there will be no surprise whatsoever, you know, after the recruiting process, if I landed the job, so I was completely, on purpose myself so loud, laughing and, you know, doing all those kinds of things. And I was yeah, if they me as I am then fine. If you know, they feel that I'm usually bit too flamboyant for them. Then it's okay. But but at least yeah, they they kind of, you know, I give them the opportunity, you know, to hire me, myself as I am. I'm not gonna lie. And then it's also for me, a kind of, you know, security because because then I mean, yeah, I have been myself during the journey. during the, during the process, and also something that I have never done before, right away, I spoke about, you know, how important for me how my mental house become important for me, for a lot of people after, you know, the COVID situation and so on that, to me, it was very important to have, you know, a kind of balance between my personal life and my professional life. And I start, you know, to give not not necessarily conditions, but just stating what was important for me, and to what extent I can go and to what extent I, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to go or you know, think that I wouldn't be ready to do. And that was actually the first time for me in my whole career that I was doing that, you know, having the confidence to say, Look, guys, I really, really love your company, I really want this job. this is literally my dream job. Remember, we talked we spoke about it? it's literally my dream job. But yeah, it's it's important for me also to have the the time to, you know, rest during the weekend and those kind of things and not you know, over work or whatsoever because it's, it's just not sustainable. So, it was a very important lesson for me to you know, even when you are in the position of looking or searching for a new job when you challenge to also kind of Yeah, be yourself 100% And, and, you know, share also what what is important for you directly with the hiring manager and kind of, you know, set up some some some conditions.

Neil Metzler: 21:34

It sounds to me this may have earned their respect in the process as well. Because you wanted that your next big thing on your terms, and you knew what your boundaries were and what was important to you, and what how all of our mental health and well being feeds into who we can be and what we aspire to be. Yeah, right. That's a great lesson. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I wanted to ask you another question and how you thought about being a woman in tech at this opportunity? Because I see, we see statistics, many tech companies have only 20 to 25% women in the workforce. So tell me a little bit more about how in the interview process, you maybe were conscious of this challenge of this fact. And nevertheless, nevertheless, you persisted. Yeah, it's,

Nassima: 22:28

it's, it's a great topic, I was obviously very, very conscious of this. As fact, I have been working, you know, for tech companies my whole life. So I have seen, you know, a little bit, I have, I have been in in very, you know, male oriented workspaces, let's say, and I have learned, yeah, how to deal with being a woman in this kind of, you know, companies, it was, honestly a very long process, because at the beginning, you want to be very, very tough, because you know, that people are expecting you to be weak or emotional or whatsoever, you know, when you are a woman, so I know, it's it's ridiculous, but it's still, it's still the case, you know, so, I was, overly, already tough. And it's actually taking me so much, you know, time and energy, it's a but but this is something that, you know, you need to learn. So, basically, from one experience to another from a company to another, you learn, how to adjust yourself how to be you know, how to be kind of balance and so on. It is it was particularly tough when I was a team lead, because being a teenager already, have a lot of you know, your challenges and responsibilities due to the role, but on top when you are a woman, I mean, yeah, everyone is expecting you to be either, the, you know, the very, you know, booster, versus manager and so on, extra extra tough or being overly, you know, overly nice, very, you know, talk about emotions all the time, and so on. So, it's there is no middle ground whatsoever, you know, what I mean? It's either, you need to, you need to find the path and just, follow it. So, yeah, it's just something that's that you learn from from, from an experience to another. And it is true that right now, after having, you know, Yeah, after, more than 15 years, you know, working for tech companies, and I feel way more confident in just, you know, being myself and not, you know, letting let's say my gender influence, you know, or, no more the perception that people have, you know, when it comes to my gender influence, my, my, my reactions, I'm aware that you know, some people would automatically have, you know, some presumption especially because I am a woman Man, I'm a person of color. I'm young, you know, so it's we have all these things adding up. So obviously, you know, Yeah, some people can have some presumption, but I mean, it's fine for me, the only impact that it has, to me is just being more performance, you know, getting even more involved in you know, the products, the company learning even more passing more and more certification just because you want to, you know, you want to show them that you haven't been hired, because, you know, they were some kind of quota, because they wanted to hire a woman or someone, from a certain age or whatsoever, but you have been hired because you have the experience, because you have the knowledge, because you are eager to you know, progress. And it's actually, you know, kind of, not a booster, but it's fine, you cannot change people, the only thing that you can do is, you know, work on yourself, if you want to, obviously, and try to become you know, better at what you what you do. But I have to admit that, you know, so far so good. In my, in my current company, I haven't had, you know, this kind of crazy reaction. Yeah, so some, I'm very grateful. And I hope that it's gonna continue this way.

Neil Metzler: 26:22

That's, that's super inspiring. And you mentioned about how you're someone who you are willing to take risks and that you kind of realized during the COVID time that for you to be happy, satisfied, yeah, you've got to be pushing, you've got to be and you've got to be pushed. And keeping in mind these challenges, you still, you know, made made this bridge to your next big thing. So thank you for sharing that. It's really inspiring. My pleasure. I guess as we move towards wrapping up, I wanted to ask a little bit about what you have learned about yourself so far, since you since you've been on board, you're living a different lifestyle. Also now with with more travel for your job responsibility, you're meeting new stakeholders all the time, and what does what have you learned about this new Nasima? In this role, I'm always interested to ask my guests after they've been on board for a few months, and they're in that new context of you know, new responsibilities, new challenges, as they reflect and observe on a personal level. Is there anything that you've learned about yourself or noticed about yourself? Since you're you started your next big thing?

Nassima: 27:31

Yeah, yeah, obviously, obviously, it's not going to be a surprise for anyone. But when you are, when you're really passionate about what you're doing, then suddenly you have your energy back, you know, and you wake up and knowing that you're going to do something. Yeah, that you are very, you know, interesting in and you are going to, you know, discuss with all those people, and you're going to keep learning and, and yeah, it just it's just so great. And he changed absolutely everything because now I even have the energy to you know, pressure, new hobby, you know, so I started to do some boxing class, I starting to take some guitar lessons, I'm probably I should do that. Also, I need to start learning German. That is gonna be my next big challenge. But But yeah, I just, changes everything, when you are truly happy truly in phase with you know, what you wanted to do and what you're doing, you know, it's, yeah, once again, you have your energy back and you want to do so many so many things. So, it's, it's a great shitting I think that you just need to really, understand what is, you know, important for you and what's, how do you, you know, perceived working on the job in general, because you're not for some people working in a company or having a job is basically just, you know, a way to you know, sustain themselves. So basically, I will exchange my time against you know, money basically. And I will be working from nine to five and I will have a lot of times after and and this is how it is, and I mean, it's fine and it's working for some people and then good for them, but then I'm not I'm not this kind of person, I can't fortunately. So for me, it's really important to do something I'm truly passionate about and if I don't if I have the feeling that I'm just wasting my time, then you know, everything just you know, collapse around me because then you know, you start to feel very very depressed and you don't have the energy to do anything else. And then you know, you need to be really careful because when you you know, lead the situation last for too long. Then you just go deeper and deeper and the deeper you go and you know, the more difficult it actually is to you know, have once again And the energy to start, the whole process overall. And because it's it can be a brutal process, it can be not easy. So yeah, my advice would be if someone, start to feel that, you know, yeah, they're not they're not feeling great at their job that's it has a very negative impact also in their personal life, you should start to, you know, take actions before it's too late. And why do you still have a bit of energy, you know, to do so. Because after it's very, very difficult.

Neil Metzler: 30:33

So you've spoken about how you tuned in to your mental health, and you decided to move forward. And also, when you got to the door that you wanted to go through, you didn't shy away from being straight up with your idea of what it should look . So I wondered how you would what you would share with someone who maybe is not super happy in their role, but thinks, hey, I'll just give it one more year, or I'll just make sure I get promoted. First. I'll give it one or two more years, and then we'll see if I'm still feeling not great. What would you say to them,

Nassima: 31:08

I mean, I think that in certain case, it can be an option, absolutely. But you need to have a plan, you know, you need to consider the big picture. So if if you if you think that within a year, you can have a very important promotion, that you will be able to, you know, use in your resume, and that will, you know, help you unlock other opportunities in other company, then, okay, go for it. But But then it's it mean that you have also the strength to you know, remain unhappy for one year or so. Without also having the certitude that, you know, at the end of the day, you will get this, this promotion. But once again, if you have a plan, if you think that, you know, during this year, you can, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a promotion, but perhaps, you know, you can say, okay, I have this year, I already knows the job or how to do it. So, you know, I can, you know, work on that. I mean, I can have I can collect my, my, I can do this work from nine to five, and then you know, have used the remaining time to I don't know, pass a certification or you know, to start against studying a certain topic, or start to, you know, learn a new language that will also help you unlock audit opportunities, then it's fine. You should you should do it. But you need to have a plan. If you just say, Yeah, okay, I will stay one more year, because I don't know. I mean, if you have been in this job since already, since one or two years, I mean, you know, exactly what your task will look . And you know, how your, you know, daily routine look if you don't it now, I really don't see how just, you know, adding one year will well, we will we will change anything. But I mean, it's it's human, you know, we do the same thing. And we expect different results, but it doesn't work that. So yeah, once again, you can you can stay one more year, but you need to have you need to have a plan. If you don't have any plan, then yeah, you're going to remain exactly in the same in the same situation.

Neil Metzler: 33:24

Nassima Filali, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. It's been a pleasure hearing your story, and I'm inspired by what you've achieved.

Nassima: 33:33

Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure as well.

Neil Metzler: 33:37

You've listened to your next big thing. If you what you've heard, please drop a and subscribe. And you can always keep in touch with us at Cloud Champions dotnet